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~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~


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~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 11:28:03 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		There has been a recent trend in threads asking what kind of class you would want your sub slave to take, or what Class you would take or What class you would send your girl or boy too.

I answered then for the most part in the way I felt was most appropriate but then I got to thinking.

Due to the Fact that What It Is That We Do (WIITWD) is such a personal and exacting practice what kind of people would you feel comfortable taking a class under?

I ask this because I recently was shown a few things about rope and knots and hitches by a person had only been involved in the lifestyle for 8 months but in that time discovered a passion for rope and dove into it in such a way that I would say he Mastered the very nature of rope. He showed me things that I had never seen and howed how to do certain Shibari Dresses when the only hands you have are your own as I will admit I usually have to have the girl hold hitches and tie offs until I can get to them. But when confronted with the idea of doing a class he looked at me strangly and said "Who the hell is going to take ME seriously" I was about to assure him that everyone would when it hit me, this guy was like 24 maybe 25 and clean shaven as a baby's ass and resembeled a boy of 13 or 15 and by his own admission had only been involved in this lifestyle for 8 months.

The questions that usually get asked are "How Much Experience can he have?" or " What is he really going to be Teaching ME" Before the Guy can even show any of his knowledge he is judged weighed and measured and found wanting.

So I started thinking about what kind of requirements I would want someone to have should I look to be instructed by them and I was amazed at how judgemental I am when it comes to such things. I was looking for some instant sign of sagely knowledge which when looked at in reality just doesn't actually exist.

So if you were looking to take a Demo or a Class or a Workshop on any of the following subjects, what experience would you be looking for before you would feel confident taking thier class?

Transparency
Bondage
Needle Play
Blade PLay
Edge Play
Shibari
Master/slave Relations
Suspension Play
Genitle Torture
Branding
Piercing
Breath Play

I use these examples because in each situation I have heard horror stories about when things went wrong while learning uninstructed. These are also common themes in workshops and classes. They are things that are usually suggested you learn something about before you get involved.

So again I ask you What would your requirements be before taking a class from someone on one of those or some other topic?

Steel

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 1:26:34 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I suppose I'd look into it through my local bdsm organizations and I would not offer to be a demo-person. 
I did attend a 'Submissives Retreat' at a local club about 6 months ago and while I apreciated the many years and diversity of experience of the Lady instructing the class, overall, I thought the gentleman I was relating in submission to at the time and I could have taught such a class and told him so.  There was a lot of overly basic stuff and things that, I felt, if a natural dynamic exists among intelligent, communication-committed people were no-brainers.  The things I think fondly on of the seminar are the stories the Instructor told of personal experiences. 
  Davan

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 2:01:39 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

So again I ask you What would your requirements be before taking a class from someone on one of those or some other topic?


When I was younger, I was told that there were two qualities necessary for people to take me seriously.  First, I needed grey hair so that I looked "distinguished" and "experienced".  Second, I needed hemorrhoids so that I would look concerned.  I guess one out of two isn't bad.
 
On a serious note, I don't mind taking a class from anyone.  No single person is my source for anything, so I weigh what they have to share against what I know already and what other experts have told me.  On many occasions I have been in workshops in which I knew more than the presenter about a topic in which I am far from expert. 
 
One of the problems with BDSM workshops is that we tend to do a very poor job of vetting our presenters.  In fact, when I present I begin with several standard disclaimers... the first of which is that I am the worst kind of presenter, in that my only factual qualifications are that I have never killed or maimed anyone.  A few months back, Jack Rinella told me that he thinks this is the biggest issue confronting BDSM for the forseeable future.  I think that's a bit much, but Jack is in the the credentialed education business and is naturally biased in that regard.
 
You might naturally ask me why (or how) it is that I can think this way, and still portray workshops as the best place to learn about BDSM.  Well, it's because for all their faults, they're still the best we have.  And truth be known, there are plenty of really good folks out there that know what they're talking about.
 
I would suggest that anyone who has presented at a major event pretty much knows what they're talking about.  On the local level, that may or may not be true.  But generally speaking, reputations and references lend a modicum of credibility to any presenter. 
 
John 

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 2:04:04 PM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

When I was younger, I was told that there were two qualities necessary for people to take me seriously.  First, I needed grey hair so that I looked "distinguished" and "experienced".  Second, I needed hemorrhoids so that I would look concerned.  I guess one out of two isn't bad.


we count dying your hair grey as second  ;)

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 3:40:07 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		It needs to be addressed that many of the listed playkinks are most safely done by those with not just more extensive experience in the niche, but who also have seasoned clinical knowledge of human physiology. Learning how to do functional ropework, suspension, etc does not mean that you've understood how to do it safely.

Not that young and new people cannot be just as competent as more seasoned folks, but I doubt most of us would feel comfortable taking our vehicle in for repairs to someone who'd just memorized the full car manual.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 3:49:09 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Okay NihilusZero but that didn't really answer the question.

What do you require? I mean What would have you believing that the Instructor was worth the listen?

I say this because the other day I ran into an Old Friend One I had introduced to the lifestyle when he was already Grey Haired and Hemroidal and was informed he is doing Single Tail Instruction for a LA S&M Group called M.E.A.T (An Acronym I can't remember what means at the moment) and I found that Odd considering I know for a fact that the first time he ever held one was 4 years ago and caused himself three stitches to the back of the ear that night.

However apparently like the Young Man who was shoing me the Ties and Knots the other day he had poured himself into it and had quite the collection and better ability than I when it came to using them.

I have to wonder is people just blindly trust those who are older because of thier precieved education.

But still Nihilus I would like to know what your requirements would be?

Steel

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 4:05:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Blech, can we please get kinky people to stop caring about "transparency" and acting like it's a big deal? 

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 4:13:32 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Uhh, I charge $150/hr for useless exercises. I'll throw in a spellchecker. And a shibari dress.

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 4:50:39 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

But still Nihilus I would like to know what your requirements would be?

Specifically? I don't know. In a general sense, I'd look for a number of references of work from people the instructor has 'worked' with/on. The ability of the instructor to demonstrate an experienced understanding of their craft (which, admittedly, may be hard to do from a position of my own ignorance, but I think it follows the same path as gauging who a more trustworthy car salesman is).

The age and appearance is irrelevant to me. These are people who most likely define themselves as artists and, as such, are best judged by their 'art' and by people who have partaken of it.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/30/2008 4:51:28 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 5:29:54 PM   
cagliostro


Posts: 128
Joined: 12/29/2007
Status: offline 		For me, it doesn't matter what it is anyone is teaching.  It matters to me that they know what they're talking about and can demonstrate that.  It also matters that they know more than me.  I've taken classes before and come out thinking, "I could have taught that class, and I just paid $X to learn that fact."  They'd have to demonstrate extensive and detailed knowledge before I'd even consider it.

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 6:35:06 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

So again I ask you What would your requirements be before taking a class from someone on one of those or some other topic?

My main requirement would be an interest in the subject and a notion that I might possibly learn something I don't already know.  Beyond that would be having the time and the means... these days my time is in short supply.

I don't seek confidence from someone else's teaching.  I could care less what their supposed credentials are.  As for what they teach, I'll apply my own critical analysis of its utility... use what I find useful and ignore the rest.  Anyone stupid enough to go applying something the learned in a class without considering its practical value deserves what happens to them.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/30/2008 7:18:15 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		A referral from someone I trust that the instructor knows the material.

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/31/2008 6:39:59 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		A couple of weeks back, I was at Dom Con in Atlanta.  Overall, it was a pretty good weekend.  A couple of the classes, I did walk out saying that I wasn't especially impressed.  There was one in particular that was done so poorly that I remember being surprised that the organizers had even selected the pair to present on the subject.  It was more than obvious that they knew very little about the topic.

That's what it comes down to for Me.  It isn't how many years someone has been doing a certain activity and (sorry John) it isn't the number of gray hairs they have on their head.  It's more do they know the material they are presenting on.  I tend to look for a combination of knowledge, skill, and practical application.  In other words, do they know what they're doing, have they gotten good at it, and is it something they enjoy outside of presenting on it. 

Almost everything on the list in the OP are certainly subjects that I would attend a class on if the presenter had less than a year in doing, but had such a passion for that type of play that they were excellent at it.  Rope does tend to have that effect on people.  Some fall in love with it so much from the first tie and it's almost like it is in their blood.  The one that's on the list that I'd probably be less likely to take a year's experience on would be Master/slave relations.  I might get a great look at their dynamic, but I don't think I'd consider them an 'expert' on anyone but each other.


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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/31/2008 7:03:54 AM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		I am active in the community : Locally, a little farther afield where we drive to participate in 'our' munch, and on a larger level. I am active online as well, not just here, but on other forums and other websites. And I like to read, so I read books on the subject, as well.
That was not a bragfest. That was to say that I have plenty of oppertunity to hear the names come up of people who might be good at what we do. This does give me the oppertunity to have my mouth water at the prospect of taking a class under certain people.
That said, I am under no illusion that I have ever heard of everyone who might be very skilled at what we do.
In a public 'class' forum, if I saw a class that was interesting to me, I would take it, regardless of who was teaching it, or the fact that I never heard of them. If it sounded interesting, I would probably take it even if I had heard 'bad' things about that presenter. The only exception might be if I had personally had a class with them already in which I was astounded by stunning stupidity - even then, if it was just the one class, I'd probably take a class that sounded good, just to make sure - maybe there was some reason they were off that one day.
A public class is just that. I listen, watch, participate - take what speaks to me, leave the rest there in the room when I leave. How many college classes have you taken where there is something taught you strongly disagree with?
If I am searching for a mentour - in a public forum, if someone is thrust at me or asks me if they can show me something, I will watch, listen and treat it like a public class. When asking someone to mentour or teach me, I will likely be more selective and chose someone I respect on that particular issue.

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/31/2008 7:12:14 AM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline
quote:

Blech, can we please get kinky people to stop caring about "transparency" and acting like it's a big deal? 


LA,
srrsly, why? I mean, I have a huge chain fetish, so does Master (actually I more or less caught it from him). Our group that we hang out with and party with are rope fitishists. Some even go to shabaricom every year. When we go to parties, we bring our own chain.
Can we please get kinky people to quit caring about rope and acting like it's such a big deal? like the end all and be all? I mean srrsly, people, there are women in my munch group that fall into drolling, cant speak, wouldn't react to a cattle prod subspace as soon as their top runs a piece of rope over their nude bodies.

No, We can't. I really don't want to. Do you? really?
'transparancy' is just a way of wording another particular fetish that some 'no lmits' kinksters have. Somone on CM once, long ago, offered a very good defination of 'no limits', as a kink (not as a defination of what the limits are in a NL relationship, which is all any other defination i've ever seen concentrates on)
They said, 'no limits' is a kink which means that the top wants what they personally percieve as a high degree of one of the following three things, or some combination of these things:
emotional transparency
acceptance of extreme or edgy play
micromanagement

It's really just another kink, just like any other. Nothing all that special about it.

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“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/31/2008 7:13:22 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Here is something interesting that a friend told me. He was looking for presenters at a local event and posted in a group on fetlife that had to deal with finding presenters for national events. In his thread he asked for experience and knowledge about certain styles of play that he wanted taught and asked that people private message him off list. Out of the 20 or so people who responded with all of their qualifications and references on the thread, only 2 or 3 responded off list like he asked. Just goes to show how many people really "listen" to what was asked and can follow instructions on what they have to do. As an event coordinator, wouldn't people realize that you need to have someone who listens and follows instructions?

LikeLadyPact, I've walked out of presentations where the presenter had no clue what they were talking about and really did the event a disservice by running a discussion/presentation for them.

C-D

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/31/2008 8:43:38 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Blech, can we please get kinky people to stop caring about "transparency" and acting like it's a big deal? 


This is an ODD subjest because I agree with the annoyance but not with the Subject.

I Agree that I am sick of people talking about Transparency as if it is a part of thier arsenal of tricks. I am sick of people talking about how important it is to have Transparency but talk about it as a tool.

Transparency is the ability for your sub to have no desire or ability to hide thigs from you. I happen to believe this is a two way street and that in order for there to be the trust necessary for a sub to be Transparent it needs to come from both sides. Of Course THIS IS AN OPINION.

However rarely do I see people discussing the REASON that Transparency is such a wonderful interaction belief. See not that long ago andi and I came to this place where I couldn't get her to communicate what her issues were. I asked and asked and asked but she kept telling me that she just didn't know. Over time and while implying the ideas of transparency and complete honesty without fear of relatiation from that honesty and then the nurturing of that honesty and discussion of that honesty and talking about how she presents that honesty without creating friction brought us to a point where today when andi is in a bad mood we talk about it before the problem can be created.

The IDEA of Transparency is an AMAZING THING, The Discussion of it to an endless degree by people who don't actually use it is annoying.

So LA, if don't mind what kind of class would you take with your partner if it existed and what would you want to have Discussed and then what credentials would you look for in the person teaching it before you would think of attending?

Steel

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The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: ~~When Seeking Enlightment what do you require~~ - 10/31/2008 11:09:43 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Blech, can we please get kinky people to stop caring about "transparency" and acting like it's a big deal?

edit; answered my own question by re-reading

To answer the original question, if the class were relatively informal and painless, I would consider taking a class from anyone who felt they had something to impart on a subject that I was interested in.
If there were more cost or time involved, I probably would check for more background, which could be experience, but it also could be just how well they document their ideas and organize their information. Sometimes you can get a feel for this from flyers about the class, or a webpage or something of that nature.

Experience in itself may not count for much if you cannot impart that experience; that is, if you have no skill or experience in organizing and presenting information.

A lot of this would depend on how complicated the topic was, I suppose.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 10/31/2008 11:49:22 AM >

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RE: When Seeking Enlightment what do you require - 10/31/2008 1:41:32 PM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

So again I ask you what would your requirements be before taking a class from someone on one of those or some other topic?


I don't like taking "classes"; if I must learn something, the journey of doing my own research and finding out for myself is usually more engaging and memorable. If I need information from an experienced person, I get it through more private channels.

I don't find any one source adequate for any questions I may have; I pick up little pieces of truth here and there from many sources, the process of which I personally believe makes a person more learned and less biased.



< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 10/31/2008 1:43:51 PM >

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RE: When Seeking Enlightment what do you require - 10/31/2008 1:43:50 PM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		I don't take classes for something that is part of my life... Of course I learn...by reading..by beeing here..from subs/slaves.
But I want to keep it "unprofessional" somehow.
But never say never...

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