RE: The differance between lifestyles

RE: The differance between lifestyles (Full Version)

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IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:42:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines. I am not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on what I bolded here. This is actually a large misconception that many DO have about Goreans; that they used fictional books to center their lives around. Goreans center their lives around honor, integrity, loyalty, and a strong sense of family and home ( family and home can encomapss their friends and their cities or country ) It just so happens that the books also use the same ethics and morals; those who embraced this were already Gorean, they just found a name for it through the books.

kittinSol -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:43:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines. Colouredin, I'm no Gor but I hope you don't mind me joining in. Ditto what luscious said above- there are a few Gor aficionadi who are intelligent people, but the majority of Gor strikes me as a rigid and rather desperate attempt at finding a commonality of purpose for individuals who are terrified of the void in their lives. "I've got to belong to a group and obey its rules in order to be myself and find the meaning of my existence.": this is how Gor comes across to me most of the time. I won't even go into their erroneous belief that men and women have specific gender roles attributed to them by nature - that's so obviously false.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:43:34 AM)
This is a misconception. No one took the books and turned it into a way of life. 1) You have the philosophy within, the author is a philosophy professor. Those philosophies are not new or unique, just the way he has mixed them together make sense to many people as an expression of how they already feel about many things. 2) The customs and traditions are seperate from the philosophies, and there are many that use those traditions and customs, without claiming to be Gorean or some that claim to be Gorean do not follow those customs. 1 and 2 are often confused, because if someone uses all the trappings from the series, they must be Gorean. Which this statement is false, because to be Gorean you must agree with the philosphies and start your journey from there. There are many mavericks within the Gorean community, and many conformist, just like anything in life. quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines.

Rover -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:44:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I personally find it a bit fucked up and confusing sticking Ds and Ms into 'BDSM' - as though they are all part of the same thing. They aren't. At least not in our world. I know there is this big push to combine everything into one neat little box of BDSM. Nah - to me, that is like certain peeps want to try and make everyone fit in, to make it inclusive. That's pretty blergh to me. I'm also an avid proponent of recognizing and appreciating the difference inherent to power exchange relationships as compared to B/D and/or S/M. But in the circles I run in, I'm not aware of any great effort to portray them all as "the same". More that we have some common interests, common concerns, and often socialize in common venues. BDSM is an umbrella term for that reason, but not meant to imply homogenization. John

lusciouslips19 -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:48:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines. I am not picking on you, I just wanted to comment on what I bolded here. Dang. I was so looking forward to a smackdown in IrishMist style. sigh (Gone but not forgotten are the Snark Filled threads. double sigh)

barelynangel -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:51:20 AM)
Gorean is based on philosophies, principles and understandings that existed LONG before Norman every thought of Gor and have existed in many historical societies sometimes together sometimes separately and many of beliefs of different historical societies. Wiithin Gor there are certain ones that exist as a whole an within the choice to identify as Gorean you have determined to live by same. Goreans utilize the philosophies of the books, they don't attempt to take the fictional plots and such and turn it into their lives. The reason people who try and read the books who don't understand this and try and take the actions of the books (without understanding the underlying bases of whys and mindsets involved) is because they haven't read the books for the meaning underneath the words. If you really read the books you will see much irony, much symbolism, etc, which all creates the understandings of what is happening in the books. I try and tell people its like reading Aesop fables. You don't read them and attempt to mimic the stories, you read them for the meaning behind the stories that is where you get the understanding of the story. So if you are under the presumption Goreans try and incorporate actions of the books into their lives and that's what makes them Gorean, then you won't ever understand it. While for some its a committment to living their lives, others its a collection of understandings they have finally put words too. For many, Gorean is at the core of their being, its imprinted as part of their character. The identification of being Gorean means you are actively choosing to live as your understanding of those philosophies in the books. If you don't identify as Gorean, well then you simply aren't Gorean. Goreans don't incorporate Gorean into their lives, they simply are Gorean. To me, BDSM, D/s, M/s, is all something people incorporate into their lives, even Goreans who choose to partake, incorporate M/s into their lives, you are and can be Gorean without ever having incorporated same into your life. Which is why slavery of a woman by a Gorean man is called Gorean slavery. Because the slavery is based on the Man who identifies himself as Gorean, and therefore, simply by association his beliefs and perceptoins of the world are transfered down to how he holds his women in slavery or his relationship with his woman who companions with him. Just as in Rome, the slaves were Roman slaves, etc. angel

lusciouslips19 -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:52:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 I have never understood why someone would take books of fiction and turn them into a way of life. Although I suppose I shouldn't be suprised as people took other books and turned them into religions. As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines. Colouredin, I'm no Gor but I hope you don't mind me joining in. Ditto what luscious said above- there are a few Gor aficionadi who are intelligent people, but the majority of Gor strikes me as a rigid and rather desperate attempt at finding a commonality of purpose for individuals who are terrified of the void in their lives. "I've got to belong to a group and obey its rules in order to be myself and find the meaning of my existence.": this is how Gor comes across to me most of the time. I won't even go into their erroneous belief that men and women have specific gender roles attributed to them by nature - that's so obviously false. I see this type of way of life in many of the devout of many religions. haveing to stick by a set of rules that make their lives orderly. Much like the Chasidic or Lubuvitch or Amish or any other belief system with a rigid set of rules and doctrine.

IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:52:29 AM)
quote: Dang. I was so looking forward to a smackdown in IrishMist style. sigh (Gone but not forgotten are the Snark Filled threads. double sigh) LMAO...well fiddlefuck Let me search my mind for an appropriate 'smack down' ok lol [:o]

colouredin -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:53:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 As for myself, I have always lived outside of guidelines. I find this interesting because we all live inside of guidlines, none more so than submissves who have guidlines placed upon us. However i dont want this to turn into a discussion about the validity of origin in either lifestyle, simply what people percieve the differance between the two to be.

Rover -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:53:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist It just so happens that the books also use the same ethics and morals; those who embraced this were already Gorean, they just found a name for it through the books. To be honest, the same principled ethics can be found in many groups as diverse as the Marine Corps and modern interpretations of the "Old Guard". When I see or hear Goreans discussing aspects of Gor, I see or hear them referring to the Norman books. Not for matters of ethics or morals, but for matters of protocol, dynamics and social structure. John

KatyLied -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:54:50 AM)
quote: any other belief system with a rigid set of rules and doctrine. For some this makes their life easier and more orderly. They need the set of rules in order to function. I would find it too confining and stifling. I'm not a joiner.

kittinSol -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 5:55:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf You have the philosophy within, the author is a philosophy professor. Those philosophies are not new or unique, just the way he has mixed them together make sense to many people as an expression of how they already feel about many things. See, what you refer to as "philosophy" I call mythology. By definition, philosophy addresses problems by reasoned argument and logic: I see no such methodology in the Gor way of life, but rather a set of beliefs - which is absolutely fine for those that like them, of course.

IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:02:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist It just so happens that the books also use the same ethics and morals; those who embraced this were already Gorean, they just found a name for it through the books. To be honest, the same principled ethics can be found in many groups as diverse as the Marine Corps and modern interpretations of the "Old Guard". When I see or hear Goreans discussing aspects of Gor, I see or hear them referring to the Norman books. Not for matters of ethics or morals, but for matters of protocol and dynamics. John You are correct about the principled ethics and morals in that you would find the same in the military or in military families most often. Which is why it is often a misconception that Goreans live by 'a book'. The books simply took a way of life and integrated it into a story of fiction. As for the protocals and dynamics; the dynamics have been around for a long time. A Gorean household most often parralles that of a M/s household. You have a Dominant, and you have a submissive ( FC ) or/and a slave. HOWEVER, being a Gorean is not dependant upon having a submissive or a slave. Being Gorean is based upon acknowledgement and acceptance of the philosophy, morals and ethics that define it. edited because I can't spell worth a shit this morning

colouredin -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:05:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist being a Gorean is not dependant upon having a submissive or a slave. Being Gorean is based upon acknowledgement and acceptance of the philosophy, morals and ethics that defind it. interesting point, so to compare does being a Dominant or submissive outside of Gorean philosophy rely on having a partner of the opposite orientation?

IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:07:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist being a Gorean is not dependant upon having a submissive or a slave. Being Gorean is based upon acknowledgement and acceptance of the philosophy, morals and ethics that defind it. interesting point, so to compare does being a Dominant or submissive outside of Gorean philosophy rely on having a partner of the opposite orientation? You tell me. How many discussions have we had on these boards that say you can not be a Master unless you have a slave/submissive to be a Master to?

colouredin -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:10:20 AM)
Thats true, but there is normally the qualification that you can be a Dominant or submissive, its just the terms Master and slave that are emotive

IrishMist -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:15:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin Thats true, but there is normally the qualification that you can be a Dominant or submissive, its just the terms Master and slave that are emotive Yes. Which leads us to another misconception about Gor. Being Gorean has absolutly nothing to do with slavery or ownership. Again, I will use the comparison that slaves are a side dish. They are not necessary to being a Gorean. Since I believe and it is how I look at things...that submissive is a personality and not an orientation; you can be submissive without being owned or collared. Slavery is a bit more difficult to explain because once again, for many, it comes down to how you view things.

Barelily -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:21:13 AM)
quote: I don't see Gor as the same as BDSM But then, I don't see Ms or Ds the same as BDSM either. I personally find it a bit fucked up and confusing sticking Ds and Ms into 'BDSM' - as though they are all part of the same thing. They aren't. At least not in our world. I know there is this big push to combine everything into one neat little box of BDSM. Agreed, I get a bit tired of people not being able to make the separation also. Disclaimer: This post was made in response to the post made by Darcyandthedark and is based on my opinion and experiences only.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:24:10 AM)
I did not refer to anything specific, so how do you know what I am actually refering to? Just to name a few, the philosphies of Plato and Nietzsche are spun into the series, not in their entirety but in their essence within the social structure described. You are correct in your other post that many that claim Gorean seem to do so as a way to group identify themselves and belong to something. That is reflected in the Master/slave morality of Nietzsche. To address someone else's ppoint, the structure is applied by the individual by a development of a code. This is where many make reference to honor and integrity. The series also uses sarcastic description of many things as an example of how the should not be. This is often seen in the characters that cause many problems and drama in the series. Many that read the series try to state that since it is in the series, then it is okay to do and is a Gorean belief, when in fact they missed the point of it being an example of how things should not be. One of the biggest misconceptions is that males are always superior, which that belief is completely opposite of superiority being based upon merit. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf You have the philosophy within, the author is a philosophy professor. Those philosophies are not new or unique, just the way he has mixed them together make sense to many people as an expression of how they already feel about many things. See, what you refer to as "philosophy" I call mythology. By definition, philosophy addresses problems by reasoned argument and logic: I see no such methodology in the Gor way of life, but rather a set of beliefs - which is absolutely fine for those that like them, of course.

leadership527 -> RE: The differance between lifestyles (11/7/2008 6:24:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin So where Goreans embrace a common philosophy and recognise themselevs as being a group people in BDSM swear blind that they are all totoally differant, when fundementall they arent really. Well, I'm not going to shout at you, and I will express deep hesitation in discussing "gorean" things where none of the people discussing them are, in fact, gorean. But without being gorean, I can in fact pick apart the above statement. "Different" is going to be one of those "in the eyes of the beholder" things. Since each of us is different from the other, the obvious questions are how different? and in what ways? and are those ways material to the talker? My own opinion is that the Goreans have a difficult time seeing themselves as a part of BDSM because they have a fundamentally different worldview than BDSM'ers, much the same reason I don't associate with the label either. It has nothing to do with any BDSM question. Yes, they (and I) have relationships in which there is an authority dynamic. But then again, so do vanilla folk and we don't call them BDSM. In what way OTHER than potentially having a relationship in which there is a sharply defined authority transfer would you say that they are BDSM?

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