RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 8:55:56 AM)

I am completely against the bailouts. I do not believe in rewarding failure.



MzMia -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 8:58:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am completely against the bailouts. I do not believe in rewarding failure.


Well LaT, I am not thrilled with the bailouts, but after we bailed out the
banks, WallStreet, we might as well bail out the auto industry.
BUT, as President-elect Obama has suggested, there have to be BIG changes
made.

Deal Journal - WSJ.com : Will Obama Bail Out GM, Chrysler and Ford?



slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:01:21 AM)

According to Ret. US Army general Wesley Clark ,writing in today's NY Times,this is a matter of National Security as well as an economic one.The need for a domestic auto industry would seem to be very important to equipping our armed services.



LaTigresse -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:04:21 AM)

I don't believe that "because we bailed out ABC......." is a valid reason to bail out XYZ. It's like paying ten thousand dollars for a rusted out 82 Cavalier with 300,000 miles on it then thinking that, because we were stupid enough to buy the piece of shit we should spend another ten thousand to fix it up. Throwing good money after bad is never a smart business move.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:06:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

According to Ret. US Army general Wesley Clark ,writing in today's NY Times,this is a matter of National Security as well as an economic one.The need for a domestic auto industry would seem to be very important to equipping our armed services.

But why does that automatically mean subsidizing the fuckups who can't run the industry right in the first place?

Toss out GM, Ford, Chrysler, as well as the idiotic UAW, sell the plants to some entrepreneurial types and build the industry on some healthy foundations for a change.



LaTigresse -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:08:28 AM)

Rarely do I agree with Celtic, but he just said what I was going to.

Just because our traditional big three might collapse does not mean there isn't someone else that couldn't build autos.........and better.



MzMia -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:11:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am completely against the bailouts. I do not believe in rewarding failure.


In that case, don't bail out ANYONE including WallStreet.
Take back the 700 billion they just got, let the stock market fall to ZERO,
set up tent city, soup kitchens and just shut our country down.

Take back every damn penny from WallStreet, let them all lose thier jobs also,
let all the millions in foreclosure, and the banks, insurance companies,
auto workers, those that lost their jobs and EXPECT extended unemployment,
and everyone else eat cake.

Our country is falling apart and collapsing before our eyes, you would almost have to be blind
not to see what is happening in the USA.



slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:13:46 AM)

And throwing out the baby with the bathwater,seems to be a bit much.Forcing rational manegment on both the big 3 and the UAW would seem to be the more expediant way to go here.This is an opportunity to rehabilitate an industry,set conditions and put them back on track.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:17:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And throwing out the baby with the bathwater,seems to be a bit much.Forcing rational manegment on both the big 3 and the UAW would seem to be the more expediant way to go here.This is an opportunity to rehabilitate an industry,set conditions and put them back on track.

What's expedient about perpetuating the baggage of the past?  And how do you go about forcing "rational management" on either side of this train wreck?



LaTigresse -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:22:52 AM)

It doesn't appear there has been much of that in the companies that have already been bailed out. What would lead anyone to believe the auto industry players would do better?



LaTigresse -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am completely against the bailouts. I do not believe in rewarding failure.


In that case, don't bail out ANYONE including WallStreet.
Take back the 700 billion they just got, let the stock market fall to ZERO,
set up tent city, soup kitchens and just shut our country down.

Take back every damn penny from WallStreet, let them all lose thier jobs also,
let all the millions in foreclosure, and the banks, insurance companies,
auto workers, those that lost their jobs and EXPECT extended unemployment,
and everyone else eat cake.


I was against the initial bailout also.



MzMia -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:26:30 AM)

Well, LaT with no bail outs, if you think you have not
seen how bad it is, even you will soon see how bad it is.
 



slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:26:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And throwing out the baby with the bathwater,seems to be a bit much.Forcing rational manegment on both the big 3 and the UAW would seem to be the more expediant way to go here.This is an opportunity to rehabilitate an industry,set conditions and put them back on track.

What's expedient about perpetuating the baggage of the past?  And how do you go about forcing "rational management" on either side of this train wreck?

Force the industry to drop their lawsuits in opposition to emissions standards first off.Insist on retooling with emphasis on hybrid and electric technology.Sit down the UAW and explain the facts of life in regards to their contracts(Universal Health Care would go along way towards relieving the industry of a backbreaking obligation to retirees).Just a start I'm sure but allowing an industry to collapse a few months after bailing out the suits on Wall St.seems a little arbitray doesn't it.Why Wall St and not Detroit,why AIG and not GM.



rulemylife -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:27:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am completely against the bailouts. I do not believe in rewarding failure.


In that case, don't bail out ANYONE including WallStreet.
Take back the 700 billion they just got, let the stock market fall to ZERO,
set up tent city, soup kitchens and just shut our country down.

Take back every damn penny from WallStreet, let them all lose thier jobs also,
let all the millions in foreclosure, and the banks, insurance companies,
auto workers, those that lost their jobs and EXPECT extended unemployment,
and everyone else eat cake.


Germany looks to aid crisis-hit automobile industry

BERLIN (AFP) – Signs grew Sunday that Berlin may do more to help Germany's entire industry a day ahead of a crisis meeting between Chancellor Angela Merkel and executives from cash-strapped Opel.
Opel, which employs almost 26,000 people in Europe's biggest economy, said on Friday it needed the German state to guarantee loans from banks as its US parent company General Motors (GM) struggles to stave off bankruptcy.



meatcleaver -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:27:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

According to Ret. US Army general Wesley Clark ,writing in today's NY Times,this is a matter of National Security as well as an economic one.The need for a domestic auto industry would seem to be very important to equipping our armed services.


This is just a protectionist strategy and completely transparent. The US uses it for the airline industry too yet the US has 30,000 planes of various sorts in mothballs in the Nevada desert. The idea that something has to be American owned for the government to conscript something for use in emergency is nonsense. How many vehiccles are there in the US? It fools no one and its an excuse other countries will use against the US in turn. Its a stupid excuse.



slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:31:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

According to Ret. US Army general Wesley Clark ,writing in today's NY Times,this is a matter of National Security as well as an economic one.The need for a domestic auto industry would seem to be very important to equipping our armed services.


This is just a protectionist strategy and completely transparent. The US uses it for the airline industry too yet the US has 30,000 planes of various sorts in mothballs in the Nevada desert. The idea that something has to be American owned for the government to conscript something for use in emergency is nonsense. How many vehiccles are there in the US? It fools no one and its an excuse other countries will use against the US in turn. Its a stupid excuse.
Sorry Meat,but you have zero credibility concerning issues of this sort.Your opinions on whether or not American taxpayers should bail out an American auto industry,given your previous post's exhibiting a hate of all things American,are nothing less than humorous.



meatcleaver -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:32:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am completely against the bailouts. I do not believe in rewarding failure.


In that case, don't bail out ANYONE including WallStreet.
Take back the 700 billion they just got, let the stock market fall to ZERO,
set up tent city, soup kitchens and just shut our country down.

Take back every damn penny from WallStreet, let them all lose thier jobs also,
let all the millions in foreclosure, and the banks, insurance companies,
auto workers, those that lost their jobs and EXPECT extended unemployment,
and everyone else eat cake.


Germany looks to aid crisis-hit automobile industry

BERLIN (AFP) – Signs grew Sunday that Berlin may do more to help Germany's entire industry a day ahead of a crisis meeting between Chancellor Angela Merkel and executives from cash-strapped Opel.
Opel, which employs almost 26,000 people in Europe's biggest economy, said on Friday it needed the German state to guarantee loans from banks as its US parent company General Motors (GM) struggles to stave off bankruptcy.



At one time Opels used to be common place in Europe but you see less and less of them, GM just don't make cars people want. Germany can't bail out Opel/GM, it is against EU competition rules and if the EU allowed it, every other European car manufacturer would want the same treatment in the same circumstances. The car industry is going through a major downturn due to the economic crisis, it is hitting Opel more than most but its tough and it should be left at that.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 9:49:50 AM)

quote:

Force the industry to drop their lawsuits in opposition to emissions standards first off.Insist on retooling with emphasis on hybrid and electric technology.Sit down the UAW and explain the facts of life in regards to their contracts(Universal Health Care would go along way towards relieving the industry of a backbreaking obligation to retirees).Just a start I'm sure but allowing an industry to collapse a few months after bailing out the suits on Wall St.seems a little arbitray doesn't it.Why Wall St and not Detroit,why AIG and not GM.

So because the government fucked up and bailed out Wall Street it should fuck up again and bail out Detroit?  You're assuming the Wall Street bailout was a good thing, and more and more I am of the opinion that it was not.

As for forcing the industry to drop their lawsuits--that's called extortion.  How certain are you that "reasonable management" would not see merit in those lawsuits and wish them pursued to completion?

Universal Health Care would not end the pension burdens--not unless you also unilaterally terminate that part of the UAW contracts, which opens up another legal Pandora's box.

What you are describing only compounds the chaos, and is every bit as arbitrary and capricious as the current notion of making up bailout rules as we go along.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:05:57 AM)

~ FAST REPLY ~
It is so great to see the concern for Corporations. Pity the same concern doesn't exist when corporations are succeeding and not in need of a hand out.  
quote:

In that case, don't bail out ANYONE including WallStreet.


Now that's something I agree with and would seem consistent with LaTigresse's position. Good to see more of us in agreement on the curtailment of ANY welfare, in ANY form to ANY individual or corporation. There's a good reason they fail - they've earned it.

Let's see some consistency in philosophy for a change. Not agenda based agreement, but pragmatic and principled agreement that rewarding failure only generates MORE failure while taking away the incentive to succeed.



slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:12:08 AM)

While I would certainly agree with you that the current implementation of Wall Street bailouts is a mess,not sure the idea was in and of itself a mistake.In this case extortion would not be the word I would choose...cost of doing business,combined with insisting on much more stringent emissions goals anyway the lawsuits would be moot.The Pension burdens relieved of the health care obligations would not be so odious to the industry.Done right(which is of course a hell of a leap of faith)it would not lead to chaos,as much as add stability to the economy...one number I have read is that 1 out of 10 jobs in this country would be adversely affected by Detroit's collapse.



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