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Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 1:46:30 AM   
Termyn8or


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I ask this here because I want some alternative opinions.

The olman seems to be sinking, he turns seventy within a month and has abused himself badly. He would almost be considered morbidly obese by some, but he is not because he has carried the weight around for quite some time, he is used to it.

Years ago he had a stoke, and he waited a couple of days to go in. The stroke was not massive, he mainly reported a numbness in one side chiefly in the arm. In a way he didn't want to get everybody shook up over a pinched nerve or something, plus the fact that we are not really fond of doctors and hospitals and all that.

So he goes in and the scan determines he did indeed have a stroke and not only that, he had another one previously. Luckily his cognitive capabilities are pretty much well preserved. He is an ornery, sometimes even nasty old Man, but I do not attribute that to the stroke(s). He was a sociopath most of his life and sees no reason to change now except for a few things, like now he has car insurance and stuff like that. (plus he voted for Obama)

After the stroke, once he went, they admitted him. When he first walked in the BP cuff literally blew right off of his arm and an alarm sounded, as if the place was on fire or something. So then it was the usual, I sat there as they rolled him wherever. I did my time.

So I get the page, call, whatever you call it to come up and there he lays in a bed. The discussion ensued of course, with me mentioning that sometimes he would salt every fork or spoonful of food. Well those days are over.

They tried many BP lowering drugs on him and the only thing that would work was Zestril. (sp) That is actually a generic form of another, name brand drug and really we are not name brand people so it kinda figures. It is a vasodilator, which in my view is not the best thing to give stroke patients, but it seems to work. He takes his BP every day and has adjusted his dosage accordingly at times. He also discusses any drug with his doctor.

His doctors have been taken slightly aback at times, like when he says "I am not taking that, it is a calcium blocker" or "I am not taking that because it is an mao inhibitor", or when they tried to put him on cholesterol drugs, and he asks "What are the numbers" That time his reguylar doctor was on vacation or something and he seems to have pulled a pill pusher out of the lottery. He put it in perspective, that is his cholesterol was only about 12% above marginal, and he told them straight out "For that 12% I am not taking a drug that can damage my liver".

Sometime in the last couple of months they changed a medication or two, one might be an inhaler. Since then his voice is going, and as much as the rest of the world might enjoy not hearing him, it is interfering with his ability to cough productively.

With him now stating that he is lower on energy than ever before, even though he has O2, this leads me to believe that he is developing pneumonia, at least partially. After years of smoking and all that, his oxygen conversion rate is not very good. They tested him and on a treadmill even WITH O2 they told him to stop. The docs put the order in for the O2 tanks and convertor immediately.

And this was a few years ago. While I might not go to a doctor I might go with him. I don't trust anyone.

To trust someone it is not enough to just trust their intent, you must also trust their intellect and judgement.

When this Man wants to die I will gladly put a bullet in his head, but until that day, as long as he wants his life I think he is entitled to every last minute of it. He worked all his life, and whatever advantages he gets in life now are his to enjoy for as long as he sees fit.

On the nineteenth we will know more. This is out of my realm, it could be a drug interaction or side effect, to which I would ask, why wasn't it being watched for and noticed ?

You don't want my answer. At any rate, I meant what I said, get in your armchair and think. I walk in here giving advice that some consider off the wall, and yes this is something important. We will have our data from the professionals come the ninteenth or shortly thereafter, I am looking for other opinions. I don't mean drink vinrgar, I think he already does that.

The problem is in identifying the problem as it came on sort of slowly. There were a few changes made preceedng this problem.

He is on a vasodilator, a diuretic, a daily inhaler and O2 at night for apnea. If he gets winded he will take the O2 during the day, but not usually. However that is getting worse.

When he coughs I can tell it isn't doing what it should, the developing pneumonia theory seem pretty valid to me and I am not so sure I think it should wait until the ninteenth, but I can't decide. The nineteenth is is.

So anything you got, I am going to hear the "party line" within two weeks, I am looking for something else. We, yes I mean we, would be receptive as well to anything that could replace these drugs with a natural substance. Any of them. My family are not trustees of modern chemistry.

Be well, I really mean that believe it or not.

T
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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 2:17:10 AM   
sirsholly


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Term...if i were you i would not wait till the 19th.



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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 2:31:53 AM   
KMsAngel


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while i echo holly's words, i have to say that any medication you put in your body is essentially a poison. the point is, the benefits usually outweigh the drawbacks. even natural medicines are poison - again benefit/drawback equation.

make sure you tell the dr's EVERYTHING he is taking. natural/medical/alcohol whatever. there could be interactions going on that you're not aware of. poly-pharmacy is rampant in elderly people. and often, they think, it's a natural med, it can't possibly be doing me any harm. also, some foods and juices will interact with medications, so bring a list of his usual foods - i.e. banana's, broccoli, grapefruit juice, etc. a decent dr or pharmacist will ask these things, but often they don't.

they should check his lungs as a matter of course.




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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 8:18:20 AM   
CalifChick


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Sounds like you need to take him in, have them clip a pulse oximeter on his finger, and in about 30 seconds, you'll know the oxygen saturation level in his bloodstream, and go from there.  He could need a breathing treatment, he could need constant oxygen, all sorts of things.


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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 10:38:39 AM   
kiwisub12


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He has multiple system problems, so he isn't going to have a simple answer. Sometimes it is a process of trial and error to get meds working most effectaciously - medicine is an art, not a science after all. 

The thing to remember with older people is that they may not have the symptoms that younger people have - ie with infectious processes, they may not run a fever. You have to look for a downward trend -  walking shorter distances before getting winded,  mild confusion, yellow or green sputum, smelly urine, swelling ankles or hands.
Don't be ready to shoot him yet. But if you see this trend , get him in sooner. If he is stable he can probably wait til the 19th.

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 10:39:01 AM   
SavageFaerie


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T

Although I would check with the dr about interations I have acutally been researching lung alt therapies.

Do some research on Lobelia.  Also called indian tobacco. Its a tincture and from what I have read the vineger based not the achocol is best.   Its has been used widly by native indians, the Germans actually use it quite a bit.   It works to open the bronchial tubes and or thin the mucus which leads to bronsitis and pneumonia. I actually found it searching for alternate ways to quick smoking without going from one nic habit to another or going flat cold turkey.   You have to be careful of dosing and not go over ay recommended amount as it could be fatal. )quite safe in low dosage. There are other benifits of lobelia.

Another thing that has been highly successful for me during periods of heavy broncitis is Ivy Calm. this is make with English Ivy extract, had to find in most natural or vitamins shoppes but easy to get online and is cheap. Just ordered 3 bottles of the syrup and 1 bottle of the capsules today for a total of 29.
I have found this to be a miracles for breathing and bronchal spasms (these close them up so mucus cant be expelled I have taken this and had immeidate relief.  Also just plain ol robutison or mucinex (same ingredient help let you cough out the excess mucus buildup along with tons of water which things the mucus.

Its just a couple of mostly natural remedies you might wish to look into but again I would clear anything though your dr.

Hope this helps.  There are many herbs that are specific to lung function I have found  Mail me on the other side if you want more info.

I have been looking for herbal remedies for menopause LOL but I dont think that would help ya in this case.



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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 11:01:52 AM   
Kalista07


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Hey T,
i'm sorry to read about Your 'old man's' health issues.  About 8 months ago i began experiencing extremly high blood pressure issues. In turn this caused my heart rate to raise through the roof, and consequently caused a great increase in my difficulty to breath. Initially i took the highblood pressure medication as recommended.  But, as generally happens with many HBP meds, the side affects felt they were not worth it.  Finally, i found some alternatives that address the issues. The funniest thing is i had a check up with my doctor this past Friday and she could not say jack crap about me taking my self off my BP meds or my cholestrol meds... i take 400mg of Co Q10 daily (which treats the BP issues) and i take a minimum of 2 (many times four) Super Omega -3 (Fish, flax, & Borage Oils; Omega-3,6, and 9 fatty acids). My resting heart rate is currently about 110 (which is like fifty points down from what it was) and my blood pressure is freaking awesome.  Consequently i can breath like a normal person and all.
i do hope some of this is able to help You and Him.  Feel free to cmail me with any other questions, etc.
i do agree with Cali, though, that if You are hearing Him having some difficulty breathing He may need a nebulizing treatment. (albuteral pushed through a machine). Many times side affect free and well worth the fifteen minutes or so it takes to do it.
Love and prayers and stuff,
Kali


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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 2:18:44 PM   
CalifChick


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Kiwi, of course, you are correct.  I was addressing only what seemed to be very urgent right now, and that is getting him breathing well again (even if only temporarily), giving more time to get other things sorted out.


Cali


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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 2:38:55 PM   
pixidustpet


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T,  another thing to consider is his age, oddly enough.  TheEngineer explained to me a few months back why cloning doesnt work perfectly.

apparently there is a bit at the end of the DNA strand that is only so long.  when you are born, it is an infinite length, and every time a cell reproduces, it looses a bit off the length and so the cells wear out and dont reproduce correctly.  (you probably knew all this.)  after a while...you age.  your cells dont bounce back like they used to, no matter how healthy you are otherwise.

and with age, and carrying extra weight, it DOES take a toll no matter how well you carry it.  it just puts extra force on everything, just as overloading an engine makes it less fuel effecient over time, especially if you dont put premium care into the engine itself.  and its more expensive/time consuming/perhaps impossible to overcome poor maintenance with repairs.

this said from someone who already has high blood pressure, diabetes, and arthritis at age 45.  so yeah, i *do* know what its like to have to "repair" for lack of maintenance over the years (not having insurance/not having regular healthcare/not taking good care of myself).

i wish your father well, and hope for good news for the both of you.

kitten

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 4:56:11 PM   
kiwisub12


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ahhh   so   - and you are right - a pulseox will give you an indication of lung function.

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/9/2008 8:02:05 PM   
DavanKael


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Sounds like a trip to an irgent care clinic or the ER would not be out of line. 
I hate ging to doctors too but I hate the idea of making 'the grand exit' far more. 
For some reason, congestive heart failure popped into my head but I don't think any of the symptoms are particularly specific. 
Checking his oxygenation, as several have noted will tell you about pulmonary function. 
I know you said you'd gladly put a bullet in his head when he wishes it (I didn't look at your profile but I'm hoping the laws on eithanasia where you are aren't wacky and that he has his end wishes in writing) but you certainly don't want a situation where he is further incapacitated and unable to communicate to you his wishes. 
Best wishes to you, him, and others dear, 
  Davan

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/10/2008 9:16:28 AM   
Termyn8or


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His lungs are pretty much FUBAR from literally fifty years of smoking and exposure to airified cutting lubricants in machine shops. However they say he has the heart of a twenty year old. His diastolic and systolic runs a pretty constant 40 point spread. Higher if the BP overall rises. Still not good if it is 250/200.

We're down to nine days now, I think he'll make it.

I can't tell you all about his ways or our rough and tumble relationship, but he used to say "I'll stay alive just to make some MF miserable" and one time I responded "Hey, that MF would be me !". However he never expected to live this long, not in a million years, or more accurately in seventy.

Yesterday I went and I could tell by his cough he was weak, and he was a bit despondent. Whipping up a conversation I think made him feel better, in fact that is where the "ewaste" thread came from.

I know better than to try to tell him what to do. You have never met someone with that much force of will, as well as stubbornness. If I walk in his house and he is unconcious, well then I make the call, but as long as he is cognizant and all that, there is no convincing him. I mean he tried to make an appointment after the stroke, they wouldn't, telling him to just walk into the ER. That's when I saw the BP cuff pop off his arm and fly near across the room, limited of course by the tubing and wires. Of course the alarm went off as if someone were robbing the place.

There was a time years ago he got sick with the flu or something and was in pretty bad shape. He wouldn't go in. Every day I thought I might walk in there and find him dead, it just seems a bit more real this time around.

It almost seems as though he functions better at a higher BP, and at one time they overprescribed the Lisinopryl and I could see the difference. Sometimes it seemed the blood was not getting to his brain. After the dosage was adjusted he returned to more, sort of, normal. Normal for him anyway.

Time will tell, in nine days we will have a more acurate idea of what is going on. He is already taking Albuterol, but has been for alot longer than this condition with his voice has existed, so I doubt it's that. It could be throat cancer for all we know right now, and yes, in his current condition I would think that they are going to keep him.

We are prepared, if they keep him long term, which is unlikely but possible, I'll have to take his checks down for him to sign, and write the checks for the bills. But really I don't think he will let them keep him all that long. He has expressed a desire to die at home, when the time comes of course.

As far as the bullet, there is one main reason that I might have to be involved, and that is we have no handguns right now, just rifles and shotguns. Actually I doubt he would ask anyway because he knows all the legal problems I would get into and a little more suffering would not be out of line to keep me from having to go through that. He has a high threshold of pain, and it would have to be pretty bad before he took that step. Actually his pain level right now is not the problem, it is mostly just aches and pains from being old. It's the breathing. That also causes him to be less active physically.

If this is resolved, he could easily have another ten years in him, and he knows it. I doubt I will be getting that very undesirable request in the near future. He would not take it likely. With my particular situation, with a good defense I might have to take a ride for involuntary manslaughter, and with a vested interest due to inheritance and so forth that might be the best I can do, he knows this. That is why I could get it down to involuntary, because he asked. If he asked I know he would not take it lightly. So let's get away from the bullet situation and see maybe there is something that can be done.

I find myself intrigued by the idea of Indian tobacco, tobacco that heals ? I have never heard of such a thing and I intend to look into it. Anything alternative is welcome, in nine days we will know all about the non-alternative.

There's a good name for it - non-alternative medicine. They could have killed him about a year or two ago, they mistakenly tripled his dose on Lisinopryl. If he was in a nursing home or something like that and was not in control of his own medication, I am quite sure his brain would've shut down. We don't trust those people, and that is why I am here.

Thanks all so far, keep it coming, I am open to almost anything.

T

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/10/2008 9:36:52 AM   
sirsholly


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just looking at the meds he is on and the symptoms you dscribe...are you sure he is taking the diuretic?
You said he is obese. Alot of elderly people who have a hard time ambulating will stop taking their diuretic because going to the bathroom is too difficult. His symptoms could be secondary to fluid overload.


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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/11/2008 2:53:47 PM   
califsue


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There are so many possibilities that could be going on. My 83 year old dad has multiple health issues and sometimes when he starts not feeling well it is a trick to determine the problem as he has lung disease with spots hardening and growing on his lungs due to his life working around chemicals and in the mining industry, diabetes, overweight, low sodium levels, a chronic and recurrent mastoid bone infection, sleep apnea, allergies, asthma, a facial neurological disorder and low blood pressure. Finding the right combination of drugs is very tricky. All I can due for him is to check and make sure he is taking his medication, look for vitamins that I think might help and not interfere or react with his current medication and try to get him to see the doctor in a timely method which can be a challenge since unless mom tells me it is usually a week or longer before he will speak up about whatever is going on. Even when I see him and can tell something is not right he will deny it and say he doesn't need to see the doctor. I wish you the best. Growing old is not for the faint of heart. I know more about health related things and the drugs then I ever wanted to because the doctor my parents have is a teaching doctor so he explains things and tells you read this and that.

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/11/2008 4:17:06 PM   
SavageFaerie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


I find myself intrigued by the idea of Indian tobacco, tobacco that heals ? I have never heard of such a thing and I intend to look into it. Anything alternative is welcome, in nine days we will know all about the non-alternative.

Thanks all so far, keep it coming, I am open to almost anything.

T


Hey T,

Lobelia aka is indian tobacco. Native indians have used to forever for many various things, from helping with chest problems to inducing vomit, lord dont remember what else I have read about it. Its a very common plant in the US.
I stumbled across it looking for a natural way to quit smoking, tho the fda says doesnt work, at least the it helps the lungs which mine are sadly in bad shape.

Also Ivy Calm= equals English Ivy leaf extract is a godsend. It has almost immediate results by stopped bronchial spasms. 

Do you homework I think the lobilia does have some contradications.

And yes the indians used to smoke the dried leaves.  Peace pipe comes to mind LOL

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/23/2008 11:03:28 AM   
Termyn8or


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Here's the update. I guess he saw a GP, who has referred him to an ENT and he had an appointment on Dec 18th or something like that but they called and said they had moved it up to this coming Monday, tomorrow actually. We don't really have any new answers.

I thought this problem started when his inhaler was changed or some other med, but I was mistaken. When I queried him about that he reminded me of what he had said. He reads the containers, he reads everything and the only thing that almost nearly coincides with his voice problems is that the inhaler manufacturer switched over to a CFC free propellant. We are not even sure if the problem occurred before or after the change.

Perhaps we'll have more answers tomorrow. At the very worst it's cancer of the larynx. If so I am pretty sure he will not take chemo or radio, so the option is excision. He would have to use one of those vibrator boxes to talk. Better to be breathing though. Who knows it might just be some sort of infection.

I'll keep you "posted".

Thanks for your best wishes and advice. Might just try some of that advice as long as they don't say it's the big C. If they do it is a whole different ballgame.

T

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/23/2008 12:45:25 PM   
kiwisub12


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Thank you for the update.

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/23/2008 7:32:18 PM   
BlackPhx


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Termyn8or Good luck with olman... It may very well be the CFC Free Propellant in the inhaler. I can't use the generic Proventil/albuterol inhalers for that reason, whatever they are using sends me into a full blown asthma attack which the Name Brand does not. It is not psychological either as they tried seeing if putting the generic in the name Brand cover without me knowing about it, would fool me, I never noticed but my lungs did. Blue is my favorite color but not for my skin.

poenkitten

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/23/2008 8:17:12 PM   
porcelain26


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I wonder if he's not dealing with carbon dioxide retention? Often times, people who have a serious history of smoking and are suddenly placed on oxygen therapy, inhalers, etc, can actually become TOO oxygentated. Say a person is used to their oxygen saturation levels (the number that the pulse oximeter reads) as being 82%. Then you put them on oxygen therapy and inhalers, and suddenly they're at 98% all the time. It's great in theory, but it actually triggers a negative response in the body and can cause CO2 retention. This can lead to problems breathing, weak coughing reflex, lack of energy, confusion, all kinds of nasty things.

Also, a lot of the times, drug interactions aren't clear until they occur. I know that sounds like a bunch of crap, but it's the truth. You can give 500 people the same exact drug combination and maybe ONE of those people will suffer a negative interaction. Whoever it was on here that said sometimes it takes a while to play with the meds and find the right combination, knew exactly what they were talking about. That's very, very true. Frustrating, but true.

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RE: Armchair doctors, get in your armchair - 11/24/2008 6:23:05 PM   
Termyn8or


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Well it's Monday. Now they want him back on the 2nd for a PET scan and then for a biopsy at an undetermined date.

T

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