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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/11/2008 6:52:29 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

57,900,986 people who voted on Nov 4th thought Obama's plan was a bad plan.


And found themselves a minority.

And I seriously doubt more than half of them were even familiar enough with Obama's plan to think it was bad (beyond "socialistic redistribution of the wealth" or "watch your wallet").

Hell, I'll bet that many of the 65 million who voted for Obama weren't familiar with his plan.

Either way, we're better off for it.  Except, that is, for those households making over $250K, who are going to lose the 3.9% tax cut they enjoyed under the Chimp for eight years.

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/11/2008 6:53:53 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Either way, we're better off for it.  Except, that is, for those households making over $250K, who are going to lose the 3.9% tax cut they enjoyed under the Chimp for eight years.


My heart bleeds for them  .

_____________________________



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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/11/2008 7:00:46 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
Either way, we're better off for it.  Except, that is, for those households making over $250K, who are going to lose the 3.9% tax cut they enjoyed under the Chimp for eight years.


My heart bleeds for them  .

Perhaps you could take up a donation


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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/11/2008 10:42:53 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      It isn't the plan that is the problem, Cagey.  It's how he is going to respond when the plan doesn't work as well in reality as it did on paper.  Watch those projections start climbing.  Watch the definition of who is rich fall.  Watch him him talk about how we all need to do our part, as families making $50-60k start seeing smaller paychecks.


What I find interesting is that people are opposing the plan not because they think it's not a good idea but based on speculation that it won't work.

Shouldn't we at least try it first, and then start bitching if what you say does happen?


I know I'm late on this, but I have to say that I, as well as many I know who were uncomfortable with Obama's "plan" was not only because they were sure it wasn't going to work.  It will work for a while, but basically, it is business as usual. 
It is more because Obama is the one flat out saying this is where he wants to take the country and we disagree with that.  Frankly, McCain would be taking us in a similar directon (more business as usual) but in a little different way.
We know the entire system needs a major overhaul and keeping a graduated tax system is the worst thing that we can do.  A flat consumption or income tax rate would be fairer.  Those making more pay more, those making less pay less.  And governement needs to rein intself in and stop spending like drunken sailors.  Neither candidate would stop wasteful spending.  There are too many favors and back scratchings and junkets to be had.  So there is an element of resentment there that things are not really going to change, but, at least in the beginning, the word is out that those making more money will take it in the shorts, much to the glee of those making less.
And they continue to waste and supposedly redistribute money that we really don't have.  I'm not rich by any means.  So don't start wondering if I am one who is affected.  I'm not.  In fact, I would probably benefit from Obama's plan for the time that it may actually be in effect.  I do agree with The Heretic that it will change.   The charismatic man will talk to us all and make sure that we know he is trying but we just have to take one (and then two, and then three) for the gipper. 
So I just don't see these as wonderful solutions or "plans" and grandiose ideas that are only meant to reel in the suckers who also can't figure out how to live within their means.  We have had a fine example of not being fiscally responsible by a bloated federal government.  40% of the population alrady doesn't pay any income taxes.  And now they are going to be eligible for an annual bonus check?  Why should the populace be responsible and accountable as individuals when the governemnt doesn't have to be?
I want to hear that everybody can keep more of their hard earned dollars and the government is not going to keep on wasting our money on bandaids when we are gushing from major arteries.  This is not what this country was meant to be about.  It bothers me that so many are so willing to forgo so much opportunity and so many freedoms and look to Uncle Sam to make everything all better.  We have to make it better by ourselves.  We will not do that by continuing and adding to our dependence on a bloated governmental system that us going to break.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 8:50:37 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I find interesting is that people are opposing the plan not because they think it's not a good idea but based on speculation that it won't work.



I know I'm late on this, but I have to say that I, as well as many I know who were uncomfortable with Obama's "plan" was not only because they were sure it wasn't going to work.  It will work for a while, but basically, it is business as usual. 



Your post was very long and had a number of different issues that I don't have the time to respond to individually.

Your statement here, though, is pretty much a perfect example of what I said.

You are telling me "it will work for a while" without explaining what time frame you think "a while" is and why if you think it will work in that time frame it won't work long-term.

Vague, meaningless statements that don't address any of the specifics of his tax plan are all I hear from those so vehemently opposed to it. 

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:22:26 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So for everyone out there who voted or didn't vote because of CHANGE!, what do you think will be CHANGED! during a Barrack Obama presidency, good or bad?


*sigh* I don't want to think about it.

something tells me we're going to have another fdr on our hands.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:23:51 PM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Repeal of the Patriot Act,


as obama voted for the patriot act...good luck.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:27:04 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		As did McCain,still hope beats eternal.The view from the White House might be a little bit different than from the Hill.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:29:45 PM   
variation30


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Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Mr Obama will have a tax plan like Bill Clinton`s(no scarwy monsters) and will also have a solid performing economy like Clinton.And he`ll get to the tasks of repairing the damage done by so-called conservatives to our economy.




wait...do you think clinton had antying to do with the economy...

so the lowering of interest rates and the sloshing around of free credit had nothing to do with it (and it's subsequent crash)?


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:32:26 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

As did McCain,still hope beats eternal.The view from the White House might be a little bit different than from the Hill.

Ah, so Dear Leader has had an epiphany after the election?


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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:34:30 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		Two things....The economy under Clinton sort of sputtered along until Republicans took control of the House after the 94 elections.  Gingrich demanded a balanced budget, and Clinton complied and the economy did really well until the bubble burst in 2000.  The second thing is, Obama will not have the same tax policy as Clinton, because Clinton did not give government handout checks to those who did not pay taxes.  He also grudgingly passed welfare reform, which was a success, but somehow, I think we are headed back towards more welfare....Just my two cent..

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 12:38:12 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

He`s going to have the Clinton tax plan.

Remember the prosperity we enjoyed during the Clinton years?

No?

I do.

That`s it.He`s going to let the bush tax cuts expire.

Remember the disaster that was bush tax/economic policy?

No?

I do.  We do....

The doom and gloom stories were bullshit lines used to try to win the election.

You can move on now,the election is over.The bullshit lines, debunked and dis-believed.


you really know nothing about economics. it's insulting.

so you think that because we are taxed more, we are more profitable?

and do you really think that tax plans are the largest variables in the boom/bust cycle that is endemic to fiat currencies?


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 3:20:10 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What I find interesting is that people are opposing the plan not because they think it's not a good idea but based on speculation that it won't work.



I know I'm late on this, but I have to say that I, as well as many I know who were uncomfortable with Obama's "plan" was not only because they were sure it wasn't going to work.  It will work for a while, but basically, it is business as usual. 



Your post was very long and had a number of different issues that I don't have the time to respond to individually.

Your statement here, though, is pretty much a perfect example of what I said.

You are telling me "it will work for a while" without explaining what time frame you think "a while" is and why if you think it will work in that time frame it won't work long-term.

Vague, meaningless statements that don't address any of the specifics of his tax plan are all I hear from those so vehemently opposed to it. 


I truly do not think I am making vague and meaningless statements.  I explained thoroughly about bloated government and "dunken sailor" spending.  Wasteful spending at that.
So please do take the time to address My concerns point by point if you wish.  There is really only one point anyway. 
All I see coming from your side of the coin is happiness that some people will be taxed more while others who do not pay tax at all will get annual bonus checks. And the beat goes on as to all that wasteful spending. 
You seem to think this is fair and not a problem. 
I don't. 

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/12/2008 3:26:21 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

Two things....The economy under Clinton sort of sputtered along until Republicans took control of the House after the 94 elections.  Gingrich demanded a balanced budget, and Clinton complied and the economy did really well until the bubble burst in 2000.  The second thing is, Obama will not have the same tax policy as Clinton, because Clinton did not give government handout checks to those who did not pay taxes.  He also grudgingly passed welfare reform, which was a success, but somehow, I think we are headed back towards more welfare....Just my two cent..
Just to be clear Joe ,we aren't talking about corporate welfare here are we?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Joenextdoor)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/13/2008 2:07:27 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGol

I truly do not think I am making vague and meaningless statements.  I explained thoroughly about bloated government and "dunken sailor" spending.  Wasteful spending at that.
So please do take the time to address My concerns point by point if you wish.  There is really only one point anyway. 
All I see coming from your side of the coin is happiness that some people will be taxed more while others who do not pay tax at all will get annual bonus checks. And the beat goes on as to all that wasteful spending. 
You seem to think this is fair and not a problem. 
I don't. 


The vague and meaningless remark was a general statement about the opposition to his tax plans that I have heard, not necessarily directed at your post.  Even so, you've used a lot of talking points straight from the GOP's failed election platform just as you have again here.

I agree with you about wasteful spending.  We've had eight years of it.  The national debt has doubled.  There has to be an increase in taxes, spending cuts alone won't help.

No one like taxes but everyone likes the services those taxes provide. 

The "some people" that will get taxed more are those in the very top tax bracket.  Those that can most afford it.  Not to mention that it is a very small percentage increase.

That's not the opposition to the plan I keep hearing though.  The argument I hear from people, including threads here, is that the tax increases will not be limited to that tax bracket and spread downward.  Which was my point. 
That is not in Obama's tax plan and he has not even hinted at that, yet it is accepted as fact when there is no evidence to support it other than pure speculation.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/13/2008 2:12:50 PM >

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/13/2008 2:24:15 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		LOL. Read the Op's title and wondered why MadRabbit was posting about Menopause.
 
Te, he.
 
*Winks*
 
candystripper 

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/13/2008 3:05:30 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGol

I truly do not think I am making vague and meaningless statements.  I explained thoroughly about bloated government and "dunken sailor" spending.  Wasteful spending at that.
So please do take the time to address My concerns point by point if you wish.  There is really only one point anyway. 
All I see coming from your side of the coin is happiness that some people will be taxed more while others who do not pay tax at all will get annual bonus checks. And the beat goes on as to all that wasteful spending. 
You seem to think this is fair and not a problem. 
I don't. 


The vague and meaningless remark was a general statement about the opposition to his tax plans that I have heard, not necessarily directed at your post.  Even so, you've used a lot of talking points straight from the GOP's failed election platform just as you have again here.


I do not listen to the GOP or the Dems (or perhaps I listen to both and then throw it all out)  and I view any of these things you call *talking points* as just that.  Talking points.  I don't believe them for a minute.  They will never see it through. On the GOP side, although I do not even hear them talking anymore about reining in spending, they will not follow thorugh on any promises to change.  On the Dem side, they are frank about wanting to do more for the "little guy", but they do not have a logical plan in place to streamline social programs and pay for it without causing more debt and creating a need for higher and higher taxes.  
 I believe and live what I say.  I have to live within My budget.  I am not entitled to anyting I do not earn and I would be foolish to spend money I do not have on things I really do not need.  I feel I have an absolute right to expect My government to do the same.
But that is no longer the American way. 

quote:

I agree with you about wasteful spending.  We've had eight years of it.  The national debt has doubled.  There has to be an increase in taxes, spending cuts alone won't help.


We have had way more than 8 years of wastful spending.  Don't fool yourself into thinking that this only started 8 years ago. And you have just shot yourself in the foot.  You agree that taxes must be increased and that spending cuts alone will not take care of this mess.  Do you see any spending cuts?  Do you hear of any planned spending cuts? So you honeslty believe that this very minor, as everybody keeps putting it, tax increase on only those in the highest tax bracket is going to even begin to approach being enough to pay for the new plans?
I don't. 

quote:

No one like taxes but everyone likes the services those taxes provide. 


I honestly do not mind "fair" taxes.  And I doubt that there are many Americans who would not be willing to pay what they consider their fair share of what is truly "fair".  What we have, and what we have had for several generations is far from fair.  As fast as it is collected it is going to pay interest on a national debt so that more and more can be borrowed to fund the latest and greatest social ideas as well as the(un)necessary pork.  In addition,. we do not really have any say in how that money is being wastefully spent.  The constituation was written specifically to limit the power of the federal government and keep the power with the people and in the states.  Somewhere, a long time ago, we got way off track.  How is is that we pay the Feds, we pay our states (not enough, apparently), and then the states are at the mercy of the Feds to try to get some of the money back?  The Feds should be at the mercy of the states.  We are the ones who say what they can have to run what programs.  Instead it is all topsy turvy.  And we accept this as the only way.  We are just used to it.  Insidious, isn't it?
How about this?  Everybody keeps what they make, and we have a straight consumption tax,.  It stands to reason that those with more money will buy more good and more expensive goods, so they will be paying more taxes, while those with limited budgets will be more prudent and buy less expensive items and will not buy as much.  So they will pay less in tax.

quote:

The "some people" that will get taxed more are those in the very top tax bracket.  Those that can most afford it.  Not to mention that it is a very small percentage increase.


So how is this "very small percentage" increase gong to pay for all the new programs? 

quote:

That's not the opposition to the plan I keep hearing though.  The argument I hear from people, including threads here, is that the tax increases will not be limited to that tax bracket and spread downward.  Which was my point. 
That is not in Obama's tax plan and he has not even hinted at that, yet it is accepted as fact when there is no evidence to support it other than pure speculation.


He may not have hinted at it, but simple math tells us that we cannot continue to spend at the rate we are or even increasse that spending and not increase taxes.
As I have just pointed out, it is My opinion that the new plans will take too much money   More money than can be gathered from a less than 4% increase on the wealthiest.  It will spread downward.  Taxes cannot continue to be raised on only the richest while lowering the obligation to and/or subsidizing the bottom 60% or more of the population.  Else, those rich guys that you seem to feel should have to hurt more, will not be around and we will have nothing.  Oh gosh...now we are back to the richest guy who got beat up at the bar and didn't come back the next night to pay his fair share of the bill!  Maybe we can all just wash dishes.  
 
Please note My tag line.  I didn't vote for either of them. 



< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 11/13/2008 3:06:46 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/13/2008 5:08:09 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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Yes, I have heard of a huge spending cut.  Ending our involvement in Iraq.

As for your other points, they seem to revolve around how unfair it is to create additional taxes on the wealthy and how everyone will be out of jobs if they don't have that huge 3.5% tax savings to be able to employ people.

You do realize that the only thing happening here is eliminating the  Bush tax decrease on the top tax bracket and returning it to what it was during the Clinton years.  Compare the unemployment rates under Clinton and Bush then talk to me about how this is going to cost jobs.  

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/13/2008 5:14:23 PM >

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RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/13/2008 5:13:48 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You do realize that the only thing happening here is eliminating the  Bush tax decrease on the top tax bracket and returning it to what it was during the Clinton years.



But that will turn us to socialism, won't it?





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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: CHANGE! THE CHANGE IS COMING! - 11/13/2008 6:40:28 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You do realize that the only thing happening here is eliminating the  Bush tax decrease on the top tax bracket and returning it to what it was during the Clinton years.



But that will turn us to socialism, won't it?







That's what Rush tells me.

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