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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad.

Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea.

So the 84 hour work week is fine with you? The company store system is ok with you? You approve of child labor? You also disapporve of corporations? Or is it only organized labor that you disapprove of?

That's what the labor laws are for. You have heard of labor laws right?

Again, you seem to be missing the point.

Why were those labor laws enacted? 

Oh, never mind, I remember.

The companies that were making immense profits suddenly realized the error of their ways and, seemingly unable to control their own greed and in a fit of remorse, pleaded with Congress to pass laws to control them before they were allowed to exploit again.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Again, you seem to be missing the point.

Why were those labor laws enacted? 

Oh, never mind, I remember.

The companies that were making immense profits suddenly realized the error of their ways and, seemingly unable to control their own greed and in a fit of remorse, pleaded with Congress to pass laws to control them before they were allowed to exploit again.

It doesnt really matter why the laws were passed. They were passed and they protect the workers. Bringing up issues like child labor and overtime as a reason for keeping unions doesn't make sense, when we have laws against that now.

So tell me, when my neice got her first job at 18 working for Meiers and was forced to pay union dues for the privaledge of working there....what exactly was the union doing for her? Besides taking part of her paycheck.

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What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 

That is why unions are necessary.

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ORIGINAL: windchymes

One of the things that gives unions a bad name is that they protect the "rights" of the wrong people, of those who have learned how to "work the system" to get a free ride. 

I have personally seen a situation where a worker was out on a minor worker's comp injury...okay, fine....then had to miss more work because he broke his arm riding a four-wheeler, while he was out on disability.  Finally came back to work after being off over six months, forcing us to lay off a very good and responsible worker who filled in for him.  His first day back, requested two weeks vacation, which we were required to honor, because he was "entitled" to it per union regulations.

I have worked for employers who were so afraid of the union, that they would disrupt the schedules and long-term working conditions of the rest of the staff to accommodate one trouble-maker, because she would run to the union if you looked at her cross-eyed, and they'd back her up every time.  This employee took a disability hiatus every single year for at least 6 years to have surgery for some complaint.  She was always the one who would slip on the patch of ice in the parking lot that the maintenance crew missed, would trip over an uneven floor tile, would choke on something in the cafeteria.  She did everything but throw herself down a flight of stairs so she could have a little extended vacation.  Yet, she was constantly molly-coddled because, oh my god, she might go to the union.

Stuff like that is why.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 

That is why unions are necessary.

That is why unions are destructive.  They waste time and energy pursuing that which does not exist--the very essence of economic inefficiency.

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CL, if the world was run the way you would like it to be run it would mean far more violence and far more unstable countries.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: windchymes

One of the things that gives unions a bad name is that they protect the "rights" of the wrong people, of those who have learned how to "work the system" to get a free ride. 

I have personally seen a situation where a worker was out on a minor worker's comp injury...okay, fine....then had to miss more work because he broke his arm riding a four-wheeler, while he was out on disability.  Finally came back to work after being off over six months, forcing us to lay off a very good and responsible worker who filled in for him.  His first day back, requested two weeks vacation, which we were required to honor, because he was "entitled" to it per union regulations.

I have worked for employers who were so afraid of the union, that they would disrupt the schedules and long-term working conditions of the rest of the staff to accommodate one trouble-maker, because she would run to the union if you looked at her cross-eyed, and they'd back her up every time.  This employee took a disability hiatus every single year for at least 6 years to have surgery for some complaint.  She was always the one who would slip on the patch of ice in the parking lot that the maintenance crew missed, would trip over an uneven floor tile, would choke on something in the cafeteria.  She did everything but throw herself down a flight of stairs so she could have a little extended vacation.  Yet, she was constantly molly-coddled because, oh my god, she might go to the union.

Stuff like that is why.

Oh, I see.

Do you think, just maybe, that the proper approach would be to address the problems and try to fix them or should we just throw the baby out with the bathwater?

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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CL, if the world was run the way you would like it to be run it would mean far more violence and far more unstable countries.

I don't want the world "run" at all. Too many people want to "run" the world. I want the "the world" left alone.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA.

Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA.

Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet.

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

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ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

In the current automaker troubles, I do think the unions are being scapegoated.

We are to blame for demanding inefficient cars and thus making them more profitable via price markup to the auto companies, so I cant blame corporate decisions that led to producing the big cars.  They were simply following the profit.

I blame politicians that have NAFTA'd this country, thus taking millions of US autobuyers out of the new car market. NAFTA has chronically proven to be better for shareholders and residents of foreign countries far more than producing any value to residents of this country.

Good post.
If companies paid decent wages and benefits there wouldn't be any "need" for Unions would there?
My uncle owned a small trucking company and he paid whatever wages and benefits that the Union truckers paid just to keep the Teamsters out of his company so  Unions benefited his employees.
And we're talking about the infamous "Local 25!"
I think it's a "good" thing for people to make a good week's pay!
People who make $40 an hour buy houses, cars, furniture, appliances and all kinds of other things. And that's good for the economy.
People who make $10 an hour don't buy much of anything.
DES, plumbers here in S.C. get $60 an hour.
Where did you find a Plumber in NYC for $30 an hour?
It's funny, people who think that $60 an hour is "too much" for someone's labor don't think $200 per hour is "too much" for a Lawyer's labor.
Lawyers are a dime a ton these days, try and get a Plumber!
Or any other person who sits at a desk, it's "O.K." for them to make $500 per hour but "not O.K." for a laborer to make $50 an hour?