-=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=-

-=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (Full Version)

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ResidentSadist -> -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/3/2009 11:50:19 PM)
-=Letter=- Dear anti-label coalition: The recurrent sub/slave definition requests from newcomers always seem to rally your anti-label coalition and you say there are no real definitions instead of helping define the language and terms we do use in our lifestyle. Shame on you. You preach that we should all meet with open hearts and open minds and not label ourselves at all. You are hypocrites because you gender label yourself as male, female or transsexual as well as listing your sexual relationship preferences as gay, straight or otherwise in order communicate who you are. Why should we stop there . . . because you do? Why not use the commonly accepted roles and definitions created by the needs of BDSM community to define ourselves like sub/slave/bottom/switch/Master/Dom/Top. I can’t believe you spread misinformation to newcomers about the lack meanings or definitions for common BDSM terms in relationship roles. Shame on you. I know why you label your sexual preferences, because it is dangerous not to. I learned that lesson well in my youth because I grew up in the gay/pansexual community. Shemales (drag queens) were called women and lived life in that role. More than one fem fatale found herself beaten or worse because she (he) didn’t label them self properly to their prospective new lover or client. When the nut sack was discovered, they were beaten and some were even killed. These poor young new shemales weren’t warned. They were insulated from the straight world and had their heads fluffed with things like “labels don’t matter” or they got role reinforcement like “you’re a real woman” like in my gazelle parable (see below). On behalf of all my young shemale friends that suffered and all the BDSM newcomers here on collarme that ask for definitions and will suffer at the hands of your lies and misinformation, I say you are dangerous! Shame on you. My attitude that you are dangerous in your deceptions about labels being meaningless applies even though a slave or submissive may not end up dead from mislabeling or a lack of, they will suffer even though others in our broad pansexual kink family have found incorrect information fatal. Labels and definitions for our roles are good, use them well and let them define your base not confine your reach. Shame on those that claim they have no meaning or don’t apply! Sincerely, Kalon Eric -=Gazelle Parable=- To those that preach there is no definable difference or categorization difference between a slave and submissive, I disagree from a social perspective. I agree that personally, in the end, all that matters between just two people is whether or not they’re happy. It doesn’t matter if they call themselves goldfish, zebras, vampires or Martians. However when it comes to interfacing socially with others, I offer you this proverb I crafted: There once were two young gazelles. They were sleek and fast and beautiful. They loved to play games and lived a passionate and fulfilling life joining the gazelle community. Once they joined in the gazelle community, some mean gazelles decided to trick them. The mean gazelles filled the happy young gazelles minds with misinformation. They said that being happy was all that matted, no matter what they called themselves. The young gazelles decided to call themselves lions. They went out in the grass together and had role play, doing lion’s games and reporting back to their friends and debating about how lions “really and truly” lived. They believed they were lions. One day while strolling along the road, an older lion was walking along when suddenly two happy young gazelles came up and jumped into his mouth proclaiming, “look we are lions too”. …so he ate them. *Moral: There are many successfully mutually mis-categorized relationships. God bless them all but, don’t preach your ignorance to others or you may get them killed (see letter above). -=Further Shame=-* Further, I often see some inherent ego in comparing the stereotype labels people assign to themselves. I see errant thinking that a submissive role is a "step on the path to slavery" like slavery is higher or further or better? I see incorrect assumptions that slaves are “lower” than submissives as if those are “ranks” not relationship roles. BDSM isn’t a contest, being slave or a submissive are not ranks nor is one necessarily related to the other and labels or stereotypes do have meanings. Shame on you. -=Guppies & Sharks=- I once said that guppies shouldn’t swim with sharks. I did not say that guppies weren’t as beautiful or as important but, it got blown out of perspective by the egos of those involved. Sometimes my Zen perspectives do not translate well to those with narrow minds, frail egos or insecurities. How could anyone see one creature as less valuable in their role than another? The same is true for all the many stereotypes (labels) and roles in our BDSM lifestyle. There are generally definable differences between us and we're each colorful, beautiful and valuable in our own ways. Shame on you. -=Black & White=- There are even label threads now. Today I find myself saying the same thing again with different words explaining that it is not a “One Way For All” definition but, like any term in the English language, it is a general base understanding. Like printers ink, the color “white” has many shades but “black” cannot be defined as “white” anymore than a “slave” is defined as a “submissive” no matter how ambiguous you claim it is. Shame on you. /<dismount> [sm=soapbox.gif]

NihilusZero -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/3/2009 11:58:45 PM)
Quite aptly to the point for a rant thread. Perhaps sticky worthy as well.

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 12:05:37 AM)
LOL...gotta love thr soapbox stance....while I agree labels are a vague picture of what possibly is..it is never and will be never the entire picture.Often times one applies labels to themselves that are erroneous..hence your lion like gazelles..And frankly, for the most part you do not give enough credit to the newbits for a modicum of discerning intelligience...Tempting

BondageBarbieX -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 12:35:50 AM)
Are we talking about labels within bdsm or in general? I thought,at least in the thread I posted in that it was generalized labeling in RL as in rich/poor,smart/dumb,classy/trashy etc.I do believe in keeping the titles in regards to bdsm and I am a submissive and am definately not a slave and would not want to be called a slave...not because I think they are bad... but because it is not who I am.

scottjk -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 12:39:04 AM)
Thanks, I wish I had written this, although I should warn you that thicker heads will never understand this. The whole concept of these forums is to distribute foundational information and to assist with education, but more often than not, it's been turned into some one's sociological, philosophical and intellectual pulpit. I could go on, but the more I think on it, the more disappointed I am in these attitudes. Is it more important to avoid 'labels' than it is to inform and exchange information for the benefit of all? Next time some one speaks out against labels, they should keep it focused on themselves, rather than shoving it in everyone's faces. It's not consentual, folks.

LadyPact -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 12:46:21 AM)
Thanks for the new look on it. Here's one I've used before and I still stand by it. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I've used this analogy before on the boards when the topic of labels has come up. If you've heard it before, I apologize. There are a lot of folks on the boards who don't particularly care for labels. I understand their reasons for their way of thinking. Still, you almost have to ask yourself the question of, where would we be without them? We have to have some kind of starting point to get at least a basic concept. We have to have some kind of way to identify who we are and what we are looking for. We'd be rather lost without some kind of basic definition. There has to at least be a starting place. I've found this example to be the best that I've come up with so far. Suppose you have decided that you are going to go to the store to buy yourself some chicken soup. Sounds easy enough. In your mind, you have your idea of what chicken soup is supposed to be. Imagine how difficult it would be to make your purchase if when you got to the store, none of the cans had a label on them. All of the cans looked exactly the same on the outside, with no clue as to their content. Without a label, there would be no way of knowing a can of chicken soup when compared with a can of baked beans. Take the concept a step farther. Let's suppose that you and I both go to the store and buy a can of chicken soup. When we compare one type of chicken soup to the other, we might have some significant differences. Sure, each chicken soup probably has some commonalities. I'm sure they both have yellowish liquid with some kind of noodle in it. What if there are a lot of differences, too? What if your bowl of chicken soup looks like some generic rip off of Campbell's and Mine is something that looks like the kind that was made from scratch? Does yours have big pieces of meat in it? How about slices of carrots? What about parsley for flavor? Is there a difference in the noodles? There's no denying that we both have chicken soup, but they could be vastly different from the other. Some folks have had longer than others to decide what their kind of chicken soup should be. They aren't saying that your soup isn't right for you, but they know what they envision their kind of chicken soup would look like.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 2:03:48 AM)
I said, “Labels and definitions for our roles are good, use them well and let them define your base not confine your reach.” I don’t think we disagree about labels although your tone seems to imply you feel different than I do even though we said the same thing? I agree that not all newcomers have blinders but far too many do. I think you underrate the general gullibility of someone that would post a “what’s the difference between sub & slave” thread. BDSM, kink and the passions, rapture and euphoria it creates is like dope. Newcomers should be extended the same care and consideration someone getting stoned on your dope for the first time would be given because they will believe the most incredible things. I know, I have to continually spit out gazelles. I have some experience with newcomers and forums. I was a mod at a forum with 80k members. My specialty was crowd control and I was very good at it. I was the troll killer, fireman and helped set the mood, tone and morale of the forums. I also helped develop a “safe” environment for newcomers to feel comfortable posting their “noob questions”. I interviewed over 1,000 forum members on the phone. I discovered a lot about newcomers in my interviews and I learned about what they believe. Often they feel post count has something to do with wisdom or truth. Often they look to a forum to hand them an answer instead of going out and looking it up for themselves. We ended up removing the post count display and eventually got different software that ranked people according to reader ratings. When measuring a “modicum of discerning intelligence”, we may have different perspectives. When someone is so new that they ask the difference between a sub and slave, they gotta’ be pretty green to both forums and BDSM. They are errantly looking to a forum community, not books, for facts and definitions instead of the opinions and ideas that a sea of humanity is good at providing. If I started a thread that said “what do you think of red cages vs black cages?” it may produce something you could use. But if I asked a forum for “the speed of light” or “the meaning of life”, I shouldn’t believe the answers. However, if a guy answers named Einstein with a post count of 876,768, many newcomers are inclined to believe him. This forum has no troll killers or crowd control mods. Therefore it is littered with high post count disinformation specialists and by policy, the mods must defend them if you attack them for spreading dangerous information. Even when they dispense deadly misinformation in gun play threads. Now that can be confusing and dangerous to newcomers. If there were any victims of the misinformation in the gun play thread, we may never know. These forums could be a much better place if the mods were allowed personal discretion and killed trolls here. If this becomes my last post, you’ll know they started with me! quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub LOL...gotta love thr soapbox stance....while I agree labels are a vague picture of what possibly is..it is never and will be never the entire picture.Often times one applies labels to themselves that are erroneous..hence your lion like gazelles..And frankly, for the most part you do not give enough credit to the newbits for a modicum of discerning intelligience...Tempting

JustDarkness -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 2:29:56 AM)
nice post..good read

badlilthang -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 3:40:51 AM)
Wow - excellent post, Sir....only one thing wrong with it - i didn't write it..L.. Labels are necessary for so many things - but as someone else said...always thickheaded beings who will not even try to understand. They are content in their little world, and firmly believes that the way they think is the one and only way. Thank You for posting this, ...very good reading. And HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Roselaure -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 4:28:59 AM)
Thank you RS, I think you are spot on. Labels serve as a commonly understood benchmark. Sure, some people fall in between or completely outside the label, but that does not make the label useless as a frame of reference. If someone calls me a politically conservative Domme, I won't be offended, but I'll think they are wrong and then set them straight. I am amused by statements from subs about what they are willing to be called and what they are not. I can't think of many things my Dom might call me that would cause me offense, but I don't offend all that easily. Keep spitting out those gazelles, poor lttle things[;)]

colouredin -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 4:52:16 AM)
I agree that labels are a benchmark, the problem when someone comes out in the posts you are reffering to and says what a sub or slave is it almost always gets someones back up. I can write what the words mean to me but not what it means to others, that is where the labelling becomes difficult. There is a difference between the labels slave and sub and the labels gay and straight there just is. Everyone knows what gay means, everyone knows what a man is there are real no arguments facts about those labels. The same cant be said about sub or slave. What tends to happen is that there is a heirarchy when describing the differance. I actually dont think that there is that big a differance the role we take on is formed by the relationship. It would be better I think to not even have the distintion. simply bottom top and switch would be better. The reason people are so desperate to define them is because some want to bang on about slaves being better and others want to bang on about slaves being doormats. Its all subjective.

SlaveIndigochild -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 5:53:41 AM)
With apologies to Bette Midler and stella of ALLAstella...... Well I can hold out forty four pairs of shocks And have needles in a line. You know I can starch and iron two dozen shirts 'fore you can count from one to nine. I can sip up a great big squirt of pee From a drippings man. Throw up from a gag, do my shopping, And be back and cook four courses in one pan. 'Cause I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. Let me tell ya again. I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. Well I can rub and scrub 'til this house smells like lemon and lime. Feed the baby, grease the car, Henna my hair at the same time. You know I can get all dressed up, Go out whoring for the M-A-N, Chained to the bed at five, sleep 'til 6, And start all over again. 'Cause I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. Let me tell ya again. I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. Well now if you come to me sick, You know that I'm gonna make you well. And if you come to me all sexed up, You know I'm gonna take away your hell. And if you come to me hungry, You know I'll feed ya like a Brit. And if it's a slave girl you want, I'll kneel to you whilst you pierce both tits...... 'Cause I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. I'll say it again. I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. Well, I got a blood signed contract That says there's nothing that I can't do. Well, I can take a whip from a riding crop, And I can make a man out Of you. 'Cause I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. I'll say it again. I'm a woman... W-O-M-A-N. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. Yeah, I'm a woman.

oceanwynds -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 5:59:35 AM)
I am a thick head. I prefer to not use labels on myself, but I do not prefer everyone to do what I do. If someone would ask if I am a submissive or a Dom, I would say submissive, however they still will not totally grasp who I am nor the extent of my submissiveness. It's my orientation, however it is limiting to my mind. One reason is in regards to Sir, I have given him full control, yet I am not a slave. I tried to figure out if I am this or that, and just stumbled over the labels. It is easier in my head to not attach a label.

CatdeMedici -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 6:10:55 AM)
Perhaps when the world stops putting labels on people "out there" it will eventually transcend into here. To think we are immune or exempt just because we are in this "life" is IMHO foolhardy. I can assure you not one person here can go through an entire day with out labelling someone. Sure its a noble cause to try and define labels in BDSM but then we profess freedom of definition, freedom of choice---kind of goes against the grain of the whole freedom thing. quote: I agree that personally, in the end, all that matters between just two people is whether or not they’re happy. It doesn’t matter if they call themselves goldfish, zebras, vampires or Martians. That is an awesome stance-as long as when you are out there--you uphold that belief--so you aren't using terms like: Muslim, Jew, Negro, Democrat, republican--Communist--for those are all labels as well. quote: don’t preach your ignorance to others or you may get them killed I am hoping you write a letter to the President, the UN, pastors, priests, ministers, teachers, parents etc. quote: Black & White=- There are even label threads now. Today I find myself saying the same thing again with different words explaining that it is not a “One Way For All” definition but, like any term in the English language, it is a general base understanding. Like printers ink, the color “white” has many shades but “black” cannot be defined as “white” anymore than a “slave” is defined as a “submissive” no matter how ambiguous you claim it is. Shame on you. Bravo, then I assume you have no prejudices, no political beliefs, no preferences, no likes, no dislikes and everything in your world is neatly...what is it when we have no labels? Unisex? Unilikes? Uniprefernces? Unipolitics? Uni--hmm well even human is a label isn't it? People have to have labels in order to define where they start to fit, others have to have them in order to figure out where others fit-- that's a sociology you can't erase in one post--noble though it may be.

Roselaure -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 6:38:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin The reason people are so desperate to define them is because some want to bang on about slaves being better and others want to bang on about slaves being doormats. I agree there there are some who want to bang on about slaves being better and others who want to bang on about slaves being doormats. One can't be around CM very long without picking up on that. But I don't think that's the reason people are so desperate to define themselves. People in all areas of life are desperate to define themselves, many of whom have never heard of sub or slave.

beargonewild -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 6:45:17 AM)
adores RS Well stated RS.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 6:57:36 AM)
At one time collarme.com agreed with you and tried to only used two categories. Oct 01, 2002 Owners & Slaves . . . (only lasted 53 days) Nov 24, 2002 Tops & Bottoms . . . (only lasted 69 days) Feb 02, 2003 Submissives & Dominants Feb 04, 2004 Submissives, Switches, Dominants Nov 01, 2004 Slaves, Submissives, Switches, Dominants Collarme evolved to match 4 of the categories we use to define ourselves in the lifestyle. Shunning the main labels to try to describe all the subtleties opens the gates of hell with false reasoning. The base is a “foundation” not a “limitation”. I do not agree, neither does Collarme, Fetlife, Bondage, Alt etc, that it is all subjective and we should shuck all the roles and boil it down to tops & bottoms. . . why not just have one role, we are all “kinky” aren’t we? I believe that the BDSM community evolved these common definitions for good reason. It defines us by our compatible lifestyles. Typically, the best submissive matched in a TPE with a Master or Mistress would not find fulfillment. Nor would a perfect slave matched with a Dom or Domme. We use those labels as a defining baseline, a foundation to grow on not a set of rules to limit us. It is simple to understand that a submissive gets to negotiate in a partial power exchange and slave does not in total power exchange. That sorts the roles out cleanly into major groups that obviously felt strongly enough about the differences in their lifestyles to create those definitions in the first place. Like the Gorean community that has evolved, they can sort out the 39 types of Gorean slave roles because they’re among their like minded peers. This is our reason and cause for the creation of these labels in first place. quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin … It would be better I think to not even have the distintion. simply bottom top and switch would be better. The reason people are so desperate to define them is because some want to bang on about slaves being better and others want to bang on about slaves being doormats. Its all subjective.

JustDarkness -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 7:08:08 AM)
quote: The base is a “foundation” not a “limitation” well put By the way...why do we worry so much about the label. It is not like the whole world is watching us....judging us. Mostly only friends know what we are (aka know our label)..and they know..we are more then just that. edit changed no in know (damn english..lol)

colouredin -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 7:12:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist It is simple to understand that a submissive gets to negotiate in a partial power exchange and slave does not in total power exchange. That sorts the roles out cleanly into major groups that obviously felt strongly enough about the differences in their lifestyles to create those definitions in the first place. I used to know a TPE slave except she never seem,ed to do as she was told, everyone else was told her label wasnt the reality though so thats certainly a way in which the label means sweet fa. Like I said in princaple I get what you are saying but at the same time the reality is differant. Sure there are the large umbrella terms of what sub and slave means thats great but its also limiting people make assumptions about the labels and then in my mind may cut themselves off from other people due to stereotypes. Sure people felt strongly enough becuase people always want to be better than others. Simple. The same can be said of the words sadist and masochist too they are often used in a way that is about heirarchy. Like I said it is one thing to label yourself male or female (do you have a penis or a vagina) or gay and straight (do you fancy people from your sex or the opposite) that is clear. But there is no common include all definition of sub and slave. Im probably one of those people you are talking about its just a label and it means what you want it to mean because it does. When you say that you are a woman you arent saying im a woman so this means i have these inherant qualities it simply refers to your sex organs, when I say I am submissive people infer what they want to from it because thats what they do. Look at the way that people talk about what real true anything is, it never is taht. The more we rely on the specific distinction the more that we are ignoraing the human being. I dont think we can just call ourselvs kinky no, i think you need to know what side of the coin you feel you are but i think thats enough as soon as you need to write a parragraph listing all your labels it is too far.

beargonewild -> RE: -=Sub/Slave, Guppy/Shark, Role Mislabeling Fatal, Shame on You=- (1/4/2009 7:27:25 AM)
In that case, why not simply ask the person how they want to be identified as? That way you negate the misuse and incorrect labeling and avoid all the petty bitching about being not wanting to be labeled. Personally I don't give a damn of someone tacks on 20 millions labels on me, all that is important are the ones which I know that I know that are applicable to myself, all the rest is just words without meaning.

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