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Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 8:23:30 AM   
Mariposa


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I've been lurking about the boards for quite some time. (Some of) Y'all are quite the informative lot. Now I have a question. I enjoy knife play a great deal and I've searched for some good Health and Safety tips on the boards. In my search I discovered that my brand of knife play is usually called blood play. I love the feeling: the thrill of power exchange and the rush of endorphins/ adrenaline released when a trusted partner draws a blade over my exposed skin. Delicious. Now, I have done this kind of play before, just not with my primary partner. She is excited to try it and indulge me with the expectation that it will be one form of play in which she always tops (wields the knife.) She has been reading up/ insists on practicing on herself (even though being cut is not something that floats her boat) before ever even coming near me with a sharp knife. Now, a lot of people reccommend finding a mentor before engaging in this type of play, but that is not practical in our case. The kink community at our college is small to non-existant. I know of only two people who enjoy (blood) knife play. One is a co-editor on a publication I work for. It would be potentially uncomfortable to randomly ask her for a safety demonstration. The other is my dear friend whom I have played with before. He is unfortunately in Europe at the mo'. So, I suppose I am asking for a general overview of safety procedures (where not to cut, avoiding veins/arteries, how deep to cut WITHOUT leaving scars, best forms of aftercare, etc.) as well as any personal experiences you might want to share. I know the basics, but things like "I know you are cutting me with the intent NOT to leave a scar, but aproximately how deep in millimetres are you cutting?" never came up during play.

Wishing You All a Lovely New Year,

Mari
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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 8:34:59 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		I'd do a search for it as I know it's been discussed before, but collarme is being very slow for me today. Also, this really is a play that I don't recommend learning online. I know it's frustrating with your situation, but it really is best.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 8:51:16 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		I don't think you can predict how a specific person will scar. I've known a person who developed scars after violet wand play! As for deep cutting, that's another area that can't be easily addressed. Even though I have a degree in pathology, I limit my cuttings to shallow strokes that don't even get down to the muscle tissue.

One thing you need to know to the point it's second nature is sterile procedure. This is best taught face to face but there are surgical textbooks that can help.

You might consider traveling to a conference to learn. I notice that one of my co-presenters at Sinsations in Leather in Chicago is giving two lectures/demos that would cover these topics


< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 1/6/2006 8:54:04 AM >

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 9:16:38 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

I don't think you can predict how a specific person will scar. I've known a person who developed scars after violet wand play! As for deep cutting, that's another area that can't be easily addressed. Even though I have a degree in pathology, I limit my cuttings to shallow strokes that don't even get down to the muscle tissue.

One thing you need to know to the point it's second nature is sterile procedure. This is best taught face to face but there are surgical textbooks that can help.

You might consider traveling to a conference to learn. I notice that one of my co-presenters at Sinsations in Leather in Chicago is giving two lectures/demos that would cover these topics



I'm going to second and third the idea of learning this face-to-face with someone who is trained to do blood play with knives. Even if you don't cut or draw blood, a knife is a weapon that can be very damaging and even deadly.

I learned by apprenticing and I've taught others this way. It doesn't take a long time but you do need to learn about knives, skin, have safety kit handy, and its good to practice with a more experienced person.

I personally would never ever trust myself and some books or online stuff only to use knives in a scene. Heck, I learned how to use knives in the kitchen from watching my mother, talking to her, and then having her show me then watch me use them.


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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 11:51:22 AM   
Mariposa


Posts: 37
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline 		Though it is quite frustrating, I happen to agree with you all. Having never *done* it in the top/ knife wielder role, I feel as though I currently know just enough to be dangerous. (NOT where I want to be.) So...my next question for anyone who wants to jump on board: where might I find a demonstration or workshop devoted to this type of play in Dutchess/Rockland/Putnam Counties or NYC? I would consider going to a pro domme with my partner, BUT I don't know any that I personally trust and I'm not sure that I make enough money. I am also, with good reason, reticent to engage in any sort of play that involves potental fluid bonding of any sort with a stranger.

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.
(LuckyAlbatross: I tried searching as well but all my efforts came to naught. So much for my uni job as a research assistant :)


All Best,

Mari

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 11:54:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mariposa
I find a demonstration or workshop devoted to this type of play in Dutchess/Rockland/Putnam Counties or NYC?


I don't live in that area anymore, however perhaps DSF will have a demo on it soon, you could ask. If you want to take a day trip, Boston's Flea will have lots of people to go to, DC is having the MAL in a few weeks, and there's always other conventions popping up around the east coast.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 12:26:06 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		TES (www.tes.org) does demos like that. I don't know if you are near Charlotte but CapeX is a good source too.

The quality of prodommes varies a lot and I don't know many who do much blood play. I'd do a lot of checking before I went that route

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 6:01:10 PM   
girl4you2


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Status: offline 		i'm far removed from med school now, but John, is there some place that someone not in school or practicing could go to try things out on a cadaver? maybe if not human, some auditing of a vertebrate anatomy course so they'd have some idea of how deep the various tissues are and get an idea of how it is in general for something to pierce skin et al?

i agree about the deep cutting and you never know whose skin will keloid or not. the variables are just so many.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/6/2006 6:03:15 PM   
girl4you2


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Status: offline 		just also wanted to add that research might well be done in a med school library, as they would have the best resources, i'd think. there is a super anatomy book that i'd recommend, as it had an actual cadaver going through the paces, but someone "borrowed" mine and didn't return it. it was a fantastic resource.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 6:46:25 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

i'm far removed from med school now, but John, is there some place that someone not in school or practicing could go to try things out on a cadaver? maybe if not human, some auditing of a vertebrate anatomy course so they'd have some idea of how deep the various tissues are and get an idea of how it is in general for something to pierce skin et al?


I don't know of any, but when I teach cutting to individuals, I use raw pig's feet from a butcher shop.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 6:50:06 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

just also wanted to add that research might well be done in a med school library, as they would have the best resources, i'd think. there is a super anatomy book that i'd recommend, as it had an actual cadaver going through the paces, but someone "borrowed" mine and didn't return it. it was a fantastic resource.


Sounds like it's better than my venerable copy of "Gray's." I've heard there are even virtual reality computer programs but those are mostly in med schools now.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 11:49:28 AM   
girl4you2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

just also wanted to add that research might well be done in a med school library, as they would have the best resources, i'd think. there is a super anatomy book that i'd recommend, as it had an actual cadaver going through the paces, but someone "borrowed" mine and didn't return it. it was a fantastic resource.


Sounds like it's better than my venerable copy of "Gray's." I've heard there are even virtual reality computer programs but those are mostly in med schools now.

grant's and gray's and the ciba series (netter) i still have, but the other one was amazing. i tried doing a search for it but haven't come up with it. was bought in a medical supply bookstore in new orleans while i was in med school. absolutely brilliant layer by layer dissections just as we did in c.a. class. the guy was cute, too (a young red haired guy). this was total reality as you do it. someday i'll find another....

are the pig feet similar in texture to human skin? it's certainly an idea i'd not thought of. i'd not want anyone cutting on me beyond superficially if he didn't know a fair bit about anatomy, including anomalies.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 12:29:52 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2
are the pig feet similar in texture to human skin? it's certainly an idea i'd not thought of. i'd not want anyone cutting on me beyond superficially if he didn't know a fair bit about anatomy, including anomalies.


They are quite similiar. In fact, pigs are often used as ballistic targets to test the effect of various weapons because they are so similar to humans in their morphological characteristics.

Most "cutting" as done by people in BDSM is quite shallow. I've never felt the need to cut deeper than 50 millimeters, and usually quite a bit shallower to get the effect that I want... not to mention the blood. This pretty much eliminates the need to use anything more than conventional bandages although I do keep stapling and suture kits around, but those are for other kinds of play rather than repair.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 1/7/2006 12:30:59 PM >

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 12:39:54 PM   
girl4you2


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Status: offline 		thank you for the info. makes more sense (i was a bit confused by the OP about wondering how deep to cut to avoid arteries and such). i'll keep those pig feet in mind.

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 1:26:07 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

Most "cutting" as done by people in BDSM is quite shallow. I've never felt the need to cut deeper than 50 millimeters, and usually quite a bit shallower to get the effect that I want... not to mention the blood. This pretty much eliminates the need to use anything more than conventional bandages although I do keep stapling and suture kits around, but those are for other kinds of play rather than repair.



I hate to question you, of all people, but do you really mean 5 millimeters? Because 50 mm is 5 centimeters, which is just about 2 inches, and 2 inches could do some pretty serious damage (I was a pathology assistant for awhile!)

chymes


< Message edited by windchymes -- 1/7/2006 1:28:10 PM >

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 2:12:28 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes


quote:

Most "cutting" as done by people in BDSM is quite shallow. I've never felt the need to cut deeper than 50 millimeters, and usually quite a bit shallower to get the effect that I want... not to mention the blood. This pretty much eliminates the need to use anything more than conventional bandages although I do keep stapling and suture kits around, but those are for other kinds of play rather than repair.



I hate to question you, of all people, but do you really mean 5 millimeters? Because 50 mm is 5 centimeters, which is just about 2 inches, and 2 inches could do some pretty serious damage (I was a pathology assistant for awhile!)

chymes



BLUSH! And after the nice things you just said about me in another notestream. You're exactly correct I meant 5. Actually I even thought 5, but I guess the fingers weren't listening.

Thank you for catching this.

Where is that edit function when one needs it!!!



< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 1/7/2006 2:13:33 PM >

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 6:50:53 PM   
windchymes


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Status: offline 		Oh, it's an honest mistake, a typo....I'm certain you meant to type "five point zero" and your decimal point key malfunctioned. I was going to just let it go, but I was afraid someone might read it and think 50 millimeters would be a dandy depth to drive a knife, lol.

chymes

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/7/2006 7:08:11 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

Oh, it's an honest mistake, a typo....I'm certain you meant to type "five point zero" and your decimal point key malfunctioned. I was going to just let it go, but I was afraid someone might read it and think 50 millimeters would be a dandy depth to drive a knife, lol.

chymes


I'd like to blame it on the decimal point key but what malfunctioned was the part between the keyboard and the chair. Thought one thing, typed another.

I appreciate your pointing it out for precisely the reason you give,



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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/8/2006 8:52:50 AM   
Mariposa


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Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline 		Oh dear. I saw 50mm and thought that maybe we were talking about different types of play. Thank you so much for helping me find TES, by the by. I looked them up (I had only been familiar wis DSF locally prior) and joined their list serve. The people there seem tremendously helpful. They also host a queer SIG and an under 30 SIG....just about perfect for me. Thanks again, John.

As to avoiding veins and arteries...they're just closer to the surface in some places. I would not, for an obvious example, want someone cutting my wrist (not that my partner would do that anyway...but) The question was asked more out of extreme caution than anything else.

Best,

Mari

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RE: Blood Play: Knife Play - 1/8/2006 9:19:17 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mariposa

Oh dear. I saw 50mm and thought that maybe we were talking about different types of play.


You can thank Windchymes; she was the one who caught it. I'm still shaking my head in amazement and gratitude for her catching the "order of magnitude" mistake

quote:

Thank you so much for helping me find TES, by the by. I looked them up (I had only been familiar wis DSF locally prior) and joined their list serve. The people there seem tremendously helpful. They also host a queer SIG and an under 30 SIG....just about perfect for me. Thanks again, John.



I've found them to be good people. They can get a bit political at times, but I think that comes from being based in NYC. Something in the water, perhaps.



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