True Submissiion: What does it mean to you?

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True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 1:46:24 PM

chastecuckoldsub

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Hi.

I am glad to have read some post on here about submission and for the interesting varied points of view, but mostly they really state there is a difference between submission and bottoming without really defining either. I think we all have an unsaid notion what those differences are, but I am hoping to hear from both domme and sub alike what to them being truly submission is.

I used to think I was submissive, when in actuality I was really selfishly motivated in wanting to get the things I was wanting from a woman. I was not even aware of it until about a year and half ago. True submission to me is about yielding, not blindly, but in genuine desire to sacrifice something to the woman you are devoting yourself. For me, this sacrifice in pride or ego, in doing something you do not perhaps want or enjoy but that she does, is what submission means to me. It is about giving yourself, body and mind, over, out of self-less devotion to pleasure genuinely the other. This invariably means in part that you will be used, something that has such a negative connotation in our society, but it is a using none the less--one born again from devotional committment to give yourself over to another for their selfish use of you and to selflessly please them, mind and body alike. It is about refirecting your own thoughts away from your own ego to hers, to be open to be molded for her by her and regardless of want or desire, to yield to her needs, lovingly and obediently. For me, this new awaking of true submission has had a profound impact upon me and has afforded a deeper level of intimacy than I would have ever believed possible. To open yourself up to vulnerability and humiliation in doing acts you find deeply degrading even for the woman you love and want to devote yourself to, coming in time to crave such acts for her amusement and pleasure is true submission. It is not when you wish it, or how you wish it, or how you want it modified. It is not about your terms, but yielding to the terms of another. This is not, of course, to say you follow blindly in doing something genuinely dangersous or life threatening, but in sacrifcing your ego over to hers and being that object of devotional gratification for her, utterly and completely selflessly.

So what does submission mean for you and how has your understanding of it evolved?

RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 2:18:30 PM

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I start with the dictionary definition

quote:

2: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant3: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another

and once that is present, we can talk and see if we have enough in common to have a relationship. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submission M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to chastecuckoldsub)

RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 2:26:15 PM

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The difference between bottom & sub in a kinky context? Bottom is the one having sensations supplied by the top. The reasons that bottoms want or enjoy these sensations may be self-ish, that is, because they are masochists, or they enjoy the endorphins, or it arouses them sexually, or because they want to be the person that the top interacts with, or some or all of the above. Bottom & top are physical terms.

Submissives? A submissive person submits to a dominant person. That submission may be offered in multiple ways: taking whatever a dominant sadist wants to dish out, or providing minor, major, or extraordinary services to the dominant person that they have a relationship with, or by learning to and then supplying whatever sensations a dominant masochist wants to experience.

And, I think, that definition updates where I stand on the general shape of the distinction I draw.

Lady Delilah Deb

_____________________________

"All acts of love & pleasure are My rituals."
--from the Charge of the Goddess, a Wiccan teaching

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 2:44:17 PM

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There are a lot of jokes and mockery on these forums about "twue" submission and how there is no such thing, but I think there is. Just as there is "Twue Love". It's just that the form it takes is variable--True Submission is shaped by the needs and desires of the individual dominant.

"True" submission is not defined by acts but by context. It's obedience to another's will for the sake of the other--not yourself. Actions that arise from the desire to make someone else's life better, to serve someone else's needs or desires, to express love by giving or suffering, are very different in both character and effect from actions that are performed to avoid punishment, receive a pre-determined reward, or for self-serving purposes. "I do it because it makes me hard", "I do because it'll get me a sexual or financial reward", "I do it because I will be punished if I don't obey" are the motives of a bottom--not a submissive.

Identical actions can be performed by two different people: one will be an act of true submission and the other will not. Sometimes the only way a dominant can really tell the difference is by how she feels on a daily basis--by monitoring her energy levels and her mood. If a domme is receiving quality submission from her partner, she is usually pretty happy in the relationship, feels strong, satisfied and well-served, and has the appetite for play and dominance that is normal and healthy for her personality.

If she's not getting the good stuff, she'll feel drained, irritable, frustrated or confused, and her libido and desire for play will drop like a stone. A partner who goes through the motions mechanically does not supply her with energy--the interaction is empty of the fuel she needs and it will leave her listless and unwell.

To define "bottoming" or "being a bottom" succinctly--bottoming means that you receive sensations or attention in a scene. Period. Doesn't matter who is "in charge", doesn't matter who is dominant. A dominant receiving a massage from her submissive is still the bottom in the scene, the one receiving energy.

One of the most salient signs of "untrue" submission is the man or woman who only wants to bottom. Some people might enjoy such partners, and may be able to deal with the enormity of their selfish needs...personally I cannot, and I find that a narcissistic bottom is deadly poison. I'm genuinely dominant, in that I need control and service in my relationships. I'm not a "service top", or a person whose needs are entirely fulfilled just in the act of binding or beating someone per se. I know that some people believe that "allowing" me to tie them up and invest hours of labor in giving them physical sensations should be all that I need to be happy and satisfied--and who knows, perhaps there are some dominants who really need nothing more than that. I'm not one of them. I need energy to flow into me, to be obeyed and to be served on my own terms. The effects of the long-term drain that a selfish bottom can inflict upon me (and dominants like me, male and female) can be catastrophic.

When it comes to giving something back, some bottoms genuinely think they are doing you a favor by performing some sort of "service" that turns them on or represents a favorite fetish--i.e., they'll "serve" you by performing oral sex on your genitals or your shoes, massaging and worshipping your feet, or by performing some other task that arouses them. But really such a person's interest in the dominant's real emotional or physical needs is nil, and their "service" is just another way to suck me dry. These people have no desire to surrender to a dominant's will, make his or her life better, to suffer or sacrifice just to see a smile and heart-felt praise. They have no need and no desire to be a "good boy" or a "good girl".

A bottom without any submissive tendencies usually wants to be the object of attention and the receiver of energy, without having to give it back. The outward, surface-level of the relationship with such a person can seem fine, at least initially, but the power exchange and energy exchange will be one-way. I can't cope with that and I have never met a dominant who could sustain those losses over any significant length of time. But as with all comments and opinions on BDSM, YMMV.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to chastecuckoldsub)

RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 2:48:31 PM

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Without getting to heavy, I would say "true submission" for me is doing what He asks without question. Placing His needs, wants, and desires before my own (it just so happens we share the same ones). Trusting in Him that what ever it is that He may want to do He would never ever place me in harms way. He looks after me and cares for me to ensure my physical and mental state of being is healthy.

girly

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happily forever one

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 4:25:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

I start with the dictionary definition
quote:

2: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant3: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another
and once that is present, we can talk and see if we have enough in common to have a relationship. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submission M

Hi Ma`am. i always view it better doing things the other way around.... See if we can establish a relationship, or more specifically, do we have good chemistry. Then see if the submissive and Dominant needs can be worked out.

My reason being you can be more flexible if that spark is there.

(in reply to FullfigRIMAAM1)

RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 4:38:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

I start with the dictionary definition
quote:

2: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant3: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another
and once that is present, we can talk and see if we have enough in common to have a relationship. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submission M

Hi Ma`am. i always view it better doing things the other way around.... See if we can establish a relationship, or more specifically, do we have good chemistry. Then see if the submissive and Dominant needs can be worked out.

My reason being you can be more flexible if that spark is there.

Oh god, well said, PS. It's that tea you drink, isn't it? It imparts reason with every gulp.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 4:47:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chastecuckoldsub
True submission to me is about yielding, not blindly, but in genuine desire to sacrifice something to the woman you are devoting yourself. For me, this sacrifice in pride or ego, in doing something you do not perhaps want or enjoy but that she does, is what submission means to me. It is about giving yourself, body and mind, over, out of self-less devotion to pleasure genuinely the other. This invariably means in part that you will be used, something that has such a negative connotation in our society, but it is a using none the less--one born again from devotional committment to give yourself over to another for their selfish use of you and to selflessly please them, mind and body alike.

I appreciate that your definition is a noble one.

I find that my submission comes less from a sense of duty (that a submissive should do this and that) and more from how I feel about a domme. Another way to say it is that I would bend over backwards more in the name of love or fondness than in the name of duty of a submissive--I would be willing to do more in a dynamic where I am a submissive companion than one where I am a houseboy.

Also, it is important to me to receive appropriate regard in return. It is difficult for me to imagine loving and giving myself selflessly to someone who did not reciprocate at some level. Consequently, activities that use me selfishly may or may not disrupt my submissive mindset based on whether they raise question about how much regard is reciprocated.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 1/18/2009 5:06:44 PM >

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 4:59:34 PM

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Edited - frivolous comment.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/18/2009 5:00:24 PM >

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 5:08:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Edited - frivolous comment.

It was funny though!

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 5:26:14 PM

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Thank you - but you did add some more, that was important, to PS's point:

Also, it is important to me to receive appropriate regard in return. It is difficult for me to imagine loving and giving myself selflessly to someone who did not reciprocate at some level. Consequently, activities that use me selfishly may or may not disrupt my submissive mindset based on whether they raise question about how much regard is reciprocated.

Hell's bells, I'd find that downright impossible and utterly repugnant! That would be to transgress a law of relationships that's way more fundamental for me than any proposed in the context of D/s .

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 5:37:04 PM

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"True submission" means to me that someone is typing one-handed.

< Message edited by Reigna -- 1/18/2009 5:40:11 PM >

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 6:28:41 PM

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"True Submission" means nothing to me.

Submission is both a personality trait and the giving of power and authority to another person for them to as they please for both of your benefits. Beyond that I see the use of such words as "true" or "real" as attempts to limit how these traits, dynamics, and activities work instead of embracing the differences of every human being.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 8:02:22 PM

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To me, submission can't be discussed at all without dominance. There is a beautiful line in a piece of liturgy I have that says, "Blessed is the wave that presses upon the sand, and blessed is the sand that succumbs to its embrace." It goes to a point that I find sacred and very difficult to discuss in words. When you submit, you become a sculptural medium for the dominant will, a channel for the dominant's will and energy. You harness your will and your drive to your dominant's will. Obedience is a foregone conclusion, service a natural outcome. It simply is a different way to be.

I will also add that though I am theoretically a switch, I have taken oaths in my faith that are not, in my view, conducive to permitting me to submit to anyone else. One could say that I am already collared. Given that, what I do as a dominant reflects what is done and given to me.

But I am a mystic, so this is all just me. (grin)

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/18/2009 8:06:07 PM

chastecuckoldsub

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You and I see eye to eye on this then. I could not submit this way if there weren't love there and mutual consideration and trust. It took that kind of love to come around for me to learn this kind of submission. It's not sense of duty that motivates me in this either. In previous relationships, where there was admittedly no true love, it wasn't submission, but really bottoming and I would often call the shots. I think only with love can true submission and this level of devotion come. That said, I know how varigated people's view our on this. While there is general agreement, even among femsubs, the details are always personal and as such differences. I love hearing and learning about that. Thanks for sharing your views. :)

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/19/2009 1:47:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Hi Ma`am. i always view it better doing things the other way around.... See if we can establish a relationship, or more specifically, do we have good chemistry. Then see if the submissive and Dominant needs can be worked out.

My reason being you can be more flexible if that spark is there.

Very sensible answer, with which I really cannot disagree. But, I've had less problems with chemistry, and more with the right attitude; granting, I've mostly dated/married vanilla. I've had chemistry, but if a man isn't submissive, he starts to irritate me with the wrong approach in conversation or attitude toward moi, so the relationship fizzles quickly. I realize chemistry is so important, nothing happens without it; but, I find that a good way for a man to make me hot is by being sub like in his approach. M

_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/19/2009 4:12:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

"True Submission" means nothing to me.

Submission is both a personality trait and the giving of power and authority to another person for them to as they please for both of your benefits. Beyond that I see the use of such words as "true" or "real" as attempts to limit how these traits, dynamics, and activities work instead of embracing the differences of every human being.

Spot on thetammyjo

This is such an individual thing that it is unique to each and every couple/sub/Dom. If the Dominant is happy and the sub is happy then the harmony created is perfect and no outside element can judge or point score .

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/19/2009 4:44:00 AM

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To me it is the absolute and without question of who is in charge.Mistress said some time ago that if she hears a but Mistress in anything that is required of me(not including hard limits)i should start packing.A submissive should give of themselves freely with no expectations and should care deeply about his or her relationship to their Mistress or Master.All rules are defined and set in stone once they have been discussed.Lastly,true submission is accpetance of the simple fact that a vast majority of Dominas are mothers first,at work second and maybe if the stars align for both,a Domina third for scening only.Of course she will always be in control as i stated earlier regardless of whether or not you are scening or walking through everyday life together.

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/19/2009 5:33:15 AM

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I only demand one thing from my boys. Loyalty.

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the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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RE: True Submissiion: What does it mean to you? - 1/19/2009 5:58:27 AM

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In My world: I lead, you follow with complete loyalty---and that is always outside of any emotional attachment or commitment. I do not allow any emotional attachment to be an excuse for lack of submission or obedience.

I am not a sometime Domina, I am the HOH (head of household) in all things, and I expect My sub to get that--not just to get it but to embrace it, believe it and live it--after that its all just details.

_____________________________

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"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to chastecuckoldsub)

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