RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 3:02:37 PM)

I have a couple of problems with this topic, for one I have read it and am not calling BS, in fact it fits with certain parts of my own belief system. Far fetched yes, but then that's my middle name anyway.

It would be much easier to dismiss this whole train of thought, because to try to accept it is to accept it at least on a theoretical level. Then it explains a few things. As far as how it fits into my mindset, I'll have to get back to you on that.

T



Sanity -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 3:09:58 PM)


Are you going to have to go do some research out in the Arizona desert before you comment any further, Termy?

Ride the snake... ?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I have a couple of problems with this topic, for one I have read it and am not calling BS, in fact it fits with certain parts of my own belief system. Far fetched yes, but then that's my middle name anyway.

It would be much easier to dismiss this whole train of thought, because to try to accept it is to accept it at least on a theoretical level. Then it explains a few things. As far as how it fits into my mindset, I'll have to get back to you on that.

T



Termyn8or -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 5:26:43 PM)

Ride something I guess. It is hard to fathom that our perception is really a projection of some insanely complex crystal or something somewhere, at the center of the universe perhaps, or who knows. While our awareness tells us that we are here, though, for the theory to work it is not true. We may percieve from here, like though a lens or something, but we are actually all there, probably in one mass somewhere.

What gets me is just how much this theory does not NOT stand in contradiction to my own beliefs about such things. Kinda scary, but cool scary. Not like Halloween, something different.

T



MarsBonfire -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 7:38:01 PM)

Sounds like a high tech version of "Plato's Cave" to me. In ages before, we thought of the universe as being "God's Book" or in the steam age, we were enraptured by the idea of a "clockwork universe" then the idea of it all being a computer program.. now a holographic representation of some sort...

It's all just mental masturbation.

"The universe is not only stranger than we imagine... it's stranger than we CAN imagine."



Sanity -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 8:20:22 PM)


Masturbation is good... what's wrong with masturbation? All it requires is either an audience (captive or otherwise) or a very good imagination to make it a really nice experience, and two or more makes it all the better!

This set of theories, and there seem to be more than one theory here involving many different ideas, they pull a lot of things together, from physics to varying religious belief systems to individual psychedelic experiences. As an example of what I mean, the following passage from the second link that FH posted brings to mind differing Totem myths or beliefs of Northwestern Native Americans, as well as other indigenous peoples with similar shamanistic cultures:

quote:

In the 1950s, while conducting research into the beliefs of LSD as a psychotherapeutic tool, Grof had one female patient who suddenly became convinced she had assumed the identity of a female of a species of prehistoric reptile. During the course of her hallucination, she not only gave a richly detailed description of what it felt like to be encapsulated in such a form, but noted that the portion of the male of the species anatomy was a patch of colored scales on the side of its head. What was startling to Grof was that although the woman had no prior knowledge about such things, a conversation with a zoologist later confirmed that in certain species of reptiles colored areas on the head do indeed play an important role as triggers of sexual arousal.


The woman¹s experience was not unique. During the course of his research, Grof encountered examples of patients regressing and identifying with virtually every species on the evolutionary tree (research findings which helped influence the man-into-ape scene in the movie, Altered States). Moreover, he found that such experiences frequently contained obscure zoological details which turned out to be accurate.


It's also, like Termy said, just a little bit spooky when you really get into it, but the fun kind of spooky!







ArticMaestro -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 8:36:11 PM)

I think of it in terms of our perception.  We percieve in 3 dimensions, and function at our time scale.  We can alter our sense of time a little, and do some interesting things with science and time, but it is basically a constant to us.  But not on the sub atomic level.  Stuff in particle accelarators appears to be going backwards in time, Tachions?  But the same existance can be percieved in different ways.  2 people often perecieve an event in very different ways.  Who knows what other levels there are?  We know that what we call matter is mostly nothing, and what there is there is a function of energy.  It seems to reason, though I suppose it isn't really proved that there are more dimensions.  Xrays were zipping around us for thousands of years before anyone noticed.  

When you really get down to the composition of Mater it is in Energy.  It is a field of sub atomic particles and energy states, which we percieve as having objects and a linear time flow, but it doesn't really.  Imagine how a bacteria percieves time, or one of those bugs that lives for 6 hours.   Maybe it is all about vibrations, like some of the new agers say. 

The metaphor of the Hologram doesn't work well for me.  It implies a machine producing it for existing viewing.  I dont see it as a projection of reality, but one perception of reality, out of very large or infinte number of perceptions.  I think a better metaphor is a rainbow.  The water vapor and light, ect is there, but if you see it just right, you can see a rainbow.  Someone 15 feet away might not be able to see it, or see a very different one, yet the conditions are the same.   I am sure the reality of it is far beyond my comprehension, but I get to play guitar and have Sex!!  So its all good.



davemamet -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 8:46:32 PM)

i would rather prefer the matrix. lot more people wearing tight shinny black latex in there ;)



OneMoreWaste -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/19/2009 10:32:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemamet

i would rather prefer the matrix. lot more people wearing tight shinny black latex in there ;)


Apparently it comes down to trendy pretentiousness vs. trendy kitsch.

Which, frankly, is what *I've* been predicting for the universe all along [8D]

Let's keep one thing in mind- it's fucking COLD in Illinois right now, and cold seriously messes with people's heads.

Send those guys to the Bahamas for a week, and see if they still think their theory holds water. [8D]



Katchoo -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/23/2009 10:22:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I've entered many political debates in which "science" is quoted as an unshakable description of reality, but which I classify as another belief system. A belief system based on faith, just as any religious belief system.


Firm


Didn't realize I was entering into a theological topic. Good science isn't based on faith. Faith is belief in the absence of fact. Good science is based on math. Math is fact.
2 +2 = 4 regardless of what god you pray to. If you don't have faith in that, I can show you on my fingers.



FirmhandKY -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/23/2009 12:35:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Katchoo

Didn't realize I was entering into a theological topic. Good science isn't based on faith. Faith is belief in the absence of fact. Good science is based on math. Math is fact.
2 +2 = 4 regardless of what god you pray to. If you don't have faith in that, I can show you on my fingers.


Science is a belief system.  A good belief system, and one to which I generally adhere.

But do not make the mistake of thinking that most of what we think of as "science" isn't based on faith.

I like discussion of epistemology. [:D]

Firm



Katchoo -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/23/2009 1:05:31 PM)



"Science is a belief system.  A good belief system, and one to which I generally adhere.

But do not make the mistake of thinking that most of what we think of as "science" isn't based on faith.

I like discussion of epistemology. [:D]

Firm"



Okay, I'll bite: how is good science faith-based?


*edited because I messed up the quote thingies*




philosophy -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/23/2009 1:13:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Katchoo


Okay, I'll bite: how is good science faith-based?




...well, you have to go back to perception theory. Or Descartes. I think therefore I am, can be paraphrased as I Believe that I'm thinking therefore I am.
You can run a scientific test, one which involves reading the results off some dial or other. Thing is, you can't actualy prove that the dial exists. The only thing you can truly attest to is that you experienced a perception of the dial.
Thus science becomes faith based.

However, this is something of a disingenuous argument as it ignores the conscious belief that is inherant in faith and conflates it with existential belief in a concrete universe.



FirmhandKY -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/26/2009 8:10:05 PM)

thanks, philo.

But I'm more into "what is a fact" according to the scientific belief system.

Or, if we get away from the mathematical hard sciences, what is history?

It comes down to having faith that some things exists without direct physical contact, or direct actual knowledge.

For example, what is the deepest undersea trench on the planet?  You can Google the answer, but unless you have direct physcial knowledge (i.e. you have traveled the world and measured every likely deep sea trench yourself), you are basing your answer on faith in many things.

Or, answer the question of who was the first President of the US?  George Washington right?  How do you know this to be a "fact"?  You are basing the answer on a belief that is based on many other people's statements, starting no doubt (if you are an American) with your kindergarten teacher.

Firm



philosophy -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/26/2009 8:18:17 PM)

..essentially, deciding for ourselves that all information received from our senses refelcts a concrete universe is a leap of faith. However, for all but a few serious mental illnesses it is a leap of faith we all share. Therefore the aditional leap of faith to decide that there is a God is on top of the everyday ordinary faith that a scientist read a dial correctly.
i don't think there's any argument that, in the above context, all knowledge of the outside world is an act of faith. However to equate that with the same faith shown by a eligious person is a tad disingenuous. All science needs is the ordinary leap of faith that the evidence of their senses reflects a concrete universe.



FirmhandKY -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/26/2009 8:30:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..essentially, deciding for ourselves that all information received from our senses refelcts a concrete universe is a leap of faith. However, for all but a few serious mental illnesses it is a leap of faith we all share. Therefore the aditional leap of faith to decide that there is a God is on top of the everyday ordinary faith that a scientist read a dial correctly.
i don't think there's any argument that, in the above context, all knowledge of the outside world is an act of faith. However to equate that with the same faith shown by a religious person is a tad disingenuous. All science needs is the ordinary leap of faith that the evidence of their senses reflects a concrete universe.


What is the difference between the faith of a religious person, and the faith of a scientist? [:D]

Firm



philosophy -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/26/2009 9:07:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
What is the difference between the faith of a religious person, and the faith of a scientist? [:D]



....because there's twice as much of the former as the latter. Religious faith is a faith additional to that required to live in a concrete universe. At least a universe concrete enough that automobiles don't ignore each other on highways as figments of the inagination.



Vendaval -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/26/2009 10:05:44 PM)

I do not remember the origin of the parable but this reminds me of the philosophical question -
 
Am I a human dreaming of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming of being a human?
 
[sm=hippie.gif]



Vendaval -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/26/2009 10:09:38 PM)

Our reality is a shared and agreed upon delusion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
However, for all but a few serious mental illnesses it is a leap of faith we all share.



philosophy -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/27/2009 9:11:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Our reality is a shared and agreed upon delusion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
However, for all but a few serious mental illnesses it is a leap of faith we all share.



....i quite like the idea that what we percieve as reality is a hypothesis that we test against the available evidence. Sometimes we change the hypothesis as our understanding of the evidence changes. How many people do we all know who have changed, fundamentally, their world view over time?



Crush -> RE: The Holodeck ... or the Matrix? (1/27/2009 4:47:03 PM)

Actually, you all are figments of my imagination...what an imagination I must have!




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