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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:27:30 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		At it's basis from what I have studied is that it is used to curtail sexual urges in the female population, and to ensure virginity, and faithfulness on the females behalf.

Some tribes do perform this rite early on, some wait until marring age. ( Which there is about 12-16)

They have enforced this ritual and told the tribe that a woman with out it are no good. Not clean, not marriable.

Some fight against it, and do not have it done, and do not condone it for their children. ( See my book referance above)

However with so much tribal and oft time religous pressure.... it is hard to stop something like this.

I am glad to hear the Egyptians are fairly sanitary about it. It is very frequently practiced there.

The mulahs have floundered back and forth on if they condone it, outlaw it, or proscribe it. Depending on where you live will determine the level of relgious input on it.

I think if it was done in a different society explaining that the women get no pleasure, and there by can not return as much pleasure would work. However many males express the pleasure they recive from ripping the sutures, or ripping the wife open by penitration. *shudders*

Women, and their pleasure.. are not a concideration in these countries. Only a mans is. Many men would rather have irrfutable proof their wife is chaste and only with them. Thier wifes pleasure is a non issue. These are very male centered societies. So what if she didnt enjoy it, she isnt suposed to.

This makes me very happy to not live there.

Gwyn 

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 1/19/2009 10:28:43 PM >

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:34:00 PM   
PanthersMom


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Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		getting this procedure to stop will require more than just educating the families.  it would require major cultural changes of immense proportions.  try forcing men who have had all the power for thousands of years to give up that power over women.  try convincing women who have been horribly abused like this that it's wrong and that they should not let it happen to their daughters.  we're talking people whose moral codes are centuries behind the mainstream of society, that is not going to be easy.  until women are valued as much as men in every corner of the world, it's not going to happen.
PM

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:34:47 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LOL, Gwyn, as for immigration I think we need to end it.
No shortage of people in the country anymore.
A hundred years ago we needed it.
We don't have any more praries to settle these days.


Fuck, I cant believe I am hijacking my own thread.. but personally I dont think those praries needed to be settled by ya'll. They already were.

So if we end immigration does this mean I get to kick all of you white assholes off of our land? Pleeeeeeease.

I think it would be worth it then if we "natives" get our land back, and we ship ya'll to where ever the hell it was you came from.  

Ending immigration is not going to do a damn thing.. but piss off the white folk that do not want to work in fast food, or make beds at the Hojo. You think it is a good idea now... but go pick tomatoes down here in Fl. for .60 an hour and see how you would like to take one of their jobs.

*ends hijack*

Gwyn

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Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:39:48 PM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
I tried.. she bounced it.



      Silver lining then, you are going to get a good lesson in the art of setting aside your own opinion for your money this term.   Many years ago, I had a speech/debate coach who would assign a persuasive speech on a topic of our own choosing, proof it, and require you to flip the bias.  The team fundy had written hers on the importance of accepting Jesus into your life.  That was fun to watch.

     Good luck.

  


Thanks hun.. boy am I earning the money this semister... *sighs*

It is good to set it aside.. but every damn peer reviewed article, book, website, educational page.. you name it has bias all the hell over it. How do you cherry pick the bits, and toss the rest out when so much is fodder?

I loved my debate coach. I chose absentance ( in a group of HS teenagers) Boy was that the hardest deabate of my life. I sure as shit didnt believe it myself. LOL But I won. *smiles* Last semister it was the age old "death penalty" argument.

Thanks again for your encouragement.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/19/2009 10:50:34 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
every damn peer reviewed article, book, website, educational page.. you name it has bias all the hell over it. How do you cherry pick the bits, and toss the rest out when so much is fodder?



         Don't be askin me them questions, you is the one with an edjumication. 

      Smile.  This is easy.  You just don't want to. 

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 12:25:24 AM   
gman992


Posts: 120
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		It's about sexual dominance over a young girl...pure and simple.

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:00:50 AM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		can you divide the paper into two fronts?

health
religious/cultural

i realise you're not going to get much in either category, but maybe it will help you in your mind to eliminate some bias. not likely - but worth a try!



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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:08:24 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

So if this mutilation of our natural breasts is to keep or find a mate.. and we are subjecting ourselves to it.. and with our female friends back up.... how does this differ from FGM? It is either the breasts, or the Vagina. They are both being altered.



One is done in a sterile setting; the other is not.  One is an adult personal decision; the other is imposed on a child.


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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:21:17 AM   
marie2


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

This made me instantly think of boob jobs. The ones with smaller boobs get boob jobs to attract or keep a male mate. ( or to make better money stripping ) Often female friends encourage this idea of mutilation, and even hold buy so and so some boobs parties.

So if this mutilation of our natural breasts is to keep or find a mate.. and we are subjecting ourselves to it.. and with our female friends back up.... how does this differ from FGM? It is either the breasts, or the Vagina. They are both being altered.

Just my idea on it.

Gwyn


It differs in a lot of ways.  The two biggest off the top of my head:  One is voluntary plastic surgery, performed on an adult who chooses it, the other is the removal of a body part with a dull rusted instrument forced upon a female in an extremely traumatic way.  One is to enhance a woman's appearance, the other is to oppress womens' sexuality.

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:30:36 AM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		do breast enlargements enhance her appearance or enhance her sexual desireability.

isn't that essentially one of the major draws for FMG, by men - of course?

take aside the fact that sexual desire is decreased by women, and physically, what is the long term difference? (short term being pain)

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:44:51 AM   
marie2


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Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel

do breast enlargements enhance her appearance or enhance her sexual desireability.


I don't think it can be stated as fact whether or not breast enhancement would increase desireability, since some men like them and some do not.  I do think we can safely assume that women who choose breast enhancement feel more attractive, or more comfortable physically in cases where they choose reductions.

quote:

isn't that essentially one of the major draws for FMG, by men - of course?


In some cases it may be, for other men it could be a turn off.  I think more often than not, women choose breast enhancement so THEY can enjoy their bodies and sexuality more, not so men can.

quote:

take aside the fact that sexual desire is decreased by women, and physically, what is the long term difference? (short term being pain)


The long term difference(s) are many.  One inhibits orgasm forever,  the other one does not.  One leaves you traumatisized, the other does not.  One is a choice, the other is not.  One is a cultural belief, that oppresses female sexuality,  the other is not. The list goes on and on. 

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:47:39 AM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		ok. playing devils advocate . thank you for not taking offense at my questions

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 4:57:27 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KMsAngel

ok. playing devils advocate . thank you for not taking offense at my questions


No reason to take offence, it's just a discussion. 

And I wanted to add that I think male circumcision would be a closer comparison.

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 6:43:56 AM   
MichiganHeadmast


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Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd


p.... how does this differ from FGM? It is either the breasts, or the Vagina. They are both being altered.




One is consensual, one isn't.  Fairly big difference.

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 8:16:19 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		It seems to me that comparing circumcision to FGM is comparing apples to oranges. As you state, Gwyn, FGM ( note the mutilation part ) renders the female incapable of having, at least, a clitoral orgasm. Men who have been circumscribed are fully capable of experiencing pleasure and orgasm.

Gwyn, as I understand your dilemma, it seems that your thesis requires you to provide data while leaving your personal opinions aside. Perhaps you could make your point by providing the points of view from women who have suffered FGM. One who comes to mind is Iman, the wife of David Bowie. She was born in Somalia and has been candid and outspoken about this practice ( she suffered it ) and its effect on her. I'n sure other victims accounts can be researched since I know that there is a movement of victims who speak out against this practice.

To those who regard FGM as just another cultural difference that should be respected, I call bullshit.If the mutilation was of males, say castration, would you feel the same ? Mutilation , of any kind, is barbaric. In this case, fuck cultural differences. Some things are more important , like basic human rights .


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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 8:34:14 AM   
pixidustpet


Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline 		gwyn, do some  research on the model iman.  she underwent this in her childhood and has been VERY vocal on her opinion of it.

it is a cultural thing, yes.  having FGM done in a clinical setting is more "acceptable" because the child doesnt run as high a risk of infection, but the cost of her sexual response is still a terrible thing.  but the women in those cultures buy into it as much as the men do.  they're convinced that this is the only way to have a marriagible daughter...because their religious leader has told them so.

i dont think the practice will be stopped in our lifetime.  there are too many young people being raised *now* who are not exposed to ideas other than what their village contains and so they are going to follow what they are convinced is the only way to go...and since western ideals are looked on with suspicion, they arent going to run out and embrace an idea as foreign to them as a new bride who hasnt undergone this procedure.  certainly no more readily than an american youth would accept a bride whose breasts have been ironed flat.....or the bride who has been literally  fattened up before the wedding, to make her appear fertile in his eyes.

its a terrible thing to remove anyone's sexuality (or rather, sexual response).  but that's my view through western eyes.

kitten

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 8:51:31 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, Gwyn----
After reading that wonderfully descriptive post you wrote theother day on crossdressing, I have faith in your ability to interject a level of emotion and statement of your opinion to the paper without being 'obvious'.  My answers to your queries are below. 
Davan

I think that female genital mutilation is a horror.  I have watched footage of it being done and though I am not squeamish have wound up crying every time I see it.  I feel similarly about male genital mutilation (Also known as circumcision and there are other practices as well).  I believe it is important to note that the damage done females is often more substantial and damaging to ability to be fully sexual, to have full sexual pleasure (Purposeful in many instances as it isn't considered, in such cultures, desirable or even acceptable, for a female to enjoy sex). 
Yes, it's a cultural practice.  Yes, I believe the practice should be wiped from the face of the earth.  Imo, no child's body should be altered without there being a dire medical reason.  Consenting adults can do whatever to their bodies they want, as far as I am concerned. 
I don't know where the exact line is but I can tell you for certain that if I found out about this being planned for a female child, I would fervently try to talk the person out of doing it and would call child protective services if they were immovable.  I have tried to talk anyone I know who has had a male child out of circumcision.  I refuse to be present at any ceremonies that legitimize such things. 
The destruction of the ability to take pleasure in sex is a disgusting, horrific, barbaric practice that ought be stopped in all cultures, in all corners of the Earth immediately. 
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 1/20/2009 8:54:18 AM >

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 11:46:18 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline 		I see it as a consent question, your are asking if one non-consensual act, imposing our current values, in order to prevent another non-consensual act, Clitoridectomy (FGM) are of equal ethical value.

As a humanist, I guess I'd have to go with the underdog here, which in my mind, is the woman undergoing the procedure - I'm very much pro-choice on this issue, I think it's pretty fucked up, and I support any reasonable efforts to put an end to the practice.

Ethically, the FGM is an unbalanced act: the woman bears the cost while receiving none of the benefit, which in any case, is probably mostly imaginary, whereas offering her a choice based on informed consent resolves any ethical issues by allowing her to weigh the cost/benefit ratio, and decide for herself.

I'd like to think that's the way we'd do it in here anyway.

The only benefit she receives is in becoming more socially acceptable within that group, and it might be a hard choice, if to refuse means one would be forced into exile or social disgrace, but I'd still have to say that without informed consent, the FGM is the more unethical act.

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 12:05:10 PM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		I think any mutilation of a child is a crime.
Bodyparts of children are not a playing field for their elders to remove at will (medical necessities are another point, of course).

Between consenting adults? Knock yourself out.

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RE: Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) - 1/20/2009 12:22:41 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		Am I in favour of FGM?  Of course not.  It's cruel and disgusting.  But, at the same time, I don't believe it's my place to impose my will upon their society and beliefs, any more than I think that it's right for anyone to impose and force their morals and beliefs upon myself or my household.  I don't think they should be doing it, but there are those out there that think I am disgusting for things as little as eating pork or beef, or because I'm not your typical, straight, white, anglo-saxon protestant with a wife and 2.4 children and would wish to change that about me, simply because it's their beliefs.  It's their right to disagree with what I do, but, it's my right to do so anyway. 

It's tradition to eat a big piece of dead animal during the holidays.  Members of P.E.T.A. find that just as deplorable as I, and I'm sure many of you find F.G.M.  Traditions change over time, and will continue to do so throughout time.  In that time, however, it's not up to any one person or group to say what is right for any other person or group.  Who would decide what group is the world authority on what's right for everyone else?  If it were up to me, I'd say "I am!", just as anyone else would.  The problem with that is, we all have different views and ideals. 

It reminds me of a saying I heard a bit back, although I don't remember from whom, and can't be arsed to look it up at the moment (watching innaugural coverage).  "The first amendment is not there to protect the things we love, but rather, to protect the things that we hate."


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