breathplay (Full Version)

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switch2please -> breathplay (1/20/2009 10:04:00 AM)

How would one go about safe breathplay?
I have both given and received, both with a switch and we had a very high level of trust.
To experiment with breathplay with a new partner, there any precautions - besides trust, obviously - that can be taken?
Thank you :)



DavanKael -> RE: breathplay (1/20/2009 10:27:17 AM)

Breathplay isn't safe.  The best you can do is acknowledge it within a RACK (risk aware consensual kink) context.  There are a couple of substantial risks involved: cutting off of air, cutting off of bloodflow.  Both can cause the profound issue of oxygen deprivation that can damage the brain upto and including death.  I believe that the cutting off blood flow is more likely to be detrimental more quickly than is the cutting off of air but, again, both have risks. 
I am thoroughly in favor of informed, consenting adults doing whatever they wish as long as they are willing to accept and deal with the consequences of their behaviors. 
I have engaged in breathplay and enjoyed it.  Trust is a big factor and is a very complicated amalgamation of pieces.  Part of the eroticism and excitement of the act is the connection that can be accentuated by what is being done. 
Best wishes,
  Davan



marie2 -> RE: breathplay (1/20/2009 10:39:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: switch2please

How would one go about safe breathplay?



I'm no expert in this area, but from the reading I've done on it, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as "safe breathplay". 

As DavanKael stated, the best you can do, if you're going to practice it, is to be fully aware of, and willing to deal with, any and all possible consequences that could occur.



VeryNastyDom -> RE: breathplay (1/20/2009 11:02:26 AM)

Brain injury is possible without adequate oxygen supply after about 3 minutes.  However, don't let that time fool you into thinking that it is OK to cut off somebody's oxygen for that long.  Hypoxia can stimulate cardiac arrest (and vice versa) and getting the heart started again is not as easy as it looks on television.  I was a hospital based paramedic for many years and personally resuscitated hundreds of patients, both with and without success.  Even in a fully equipped Level 1 trauma center with all the right equipment and five or six skilled professionals, attempting a resuscitation was "exciting" to say the least.  We typically had a physician (or two), two nurses, a respiratory therapy technician, a paramedic, and one or two other people helping.

If you are engaging in breath play to the point of unconsciousness you are taking considerable risks, especially if it just you and the play partner.  I don't suggest that you play this way, but if you want to anyway then have a phone nearby, leave the front door unlocked so emergency personnel can get in, know how to do CPR, and don't use positions that do not lend themselves to administration of CPR (i.e. no suspensions for example).



brownbutterfli -> RE: breathplay (1/20/2009 11:48:16 AM)

I have participated in breath play but I trusted the person that was doing it.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: breathplay (1/20/2009 2:49:05 PM)

Oh.. and one thing folks haven't mentioned in the "risk aware" section is that you can do breathplay 100 times or 1000 times, or a kazillion times, on the same person or many different people, and not have anything bad happen... and with no warning, that one time, the whole kit and kaboodle comes down on your head. The same risks are taken by individuals who do sports that include choke-holds, etc. Sudden death with -no- predisposing factors is a very real possibility (as is a charge of manslaughter if you have a generous DA, and premeditated murder if you don't).

Also, aside from death, other injuries like crushed blood vessels, nerve damage, broken necks, dislocated jaws, and crushed windpipes can be caused by poorly managed, mal-positioned, or overly aggressive breath play.

Some additional things that may make a difference (or may not):

1. Have some kind of document (preferably notarized) that says that you've consented to participate in oxygen-deprivation play and that you understand that it may result in your sudden death and you do not hold the other participant(s) liable.

2. Have an AED (Automated Emergency Defibrillator) in your dungeon

3. Stay current on your CPR/SFA training.

4. Have your lawyer on retainer, and his or her business card where it can easily be grabbed.

5. Don't have health problems that could be aggravated by loss of oxygen (seizure disorder, diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, GERD...)



DesFIP -> RE: breathplay (1/20/2009 6:26:32 PM)

Calla, you can not consent to manslaughter/murder. Any numbers of signed documents won't prevent the top from being charged and found guilty. The best they can do is reduce the charge to accidental manslaughter.



LittleMissModern -> RE: breathplay (1/21/2009 6:23:45 AM)

I LOVE breath play... it's one of my favorite types of play and I have played that way with both vanilla and lifestyle type partners. 

we rarely cut off breathing entirely,  most often we just restrict/minimize it.  it's been very fun.

we always have a safe word/ safe action but never play beyond a minute or so at a time anyway, so as to avoid risk as much as possible. 

i just think that's a good way to play how we want, minimize risk, and still achieve the desired effect--





ThundersCry -> RE: breathplay (1/21/2009 4:58:46 PM)

I like some forms of breath play...
 
However I had very little experience with...it.
 
Sooo....I found someone who had experience in some areas and she taught...me.
 
I damn near died a few times but oh...welllll...part of the *training*...
 
Actually...she was very safe and I think I am as...well...now.



switch2please -> RE: breathplay (1/21/2009 5:28:10 PM)

Thank you all for your responses.
I should have been more specific...I realize there is no such thing as 'safe' breathplay, I meant to ask how to limit the risks if possible. When I've played very little air was cut off, nowhere near the required amount for unconsciousness. It's more about the erotic experience, a hand on my throat with slight pressure is enough for me :) I close my fist, releasing one finger means too much pressure and an open fist is STOP NOW. I have no interest in autoerotic asphyxiation, that's too edgy for me.
I realize even that slight pressure can be dangerous. Is it possible to limit that danger, or is having limited medical training (CPR) and being aware of the risks all you can do?



Maya2001 -> RE: breathplay (1/21/2009 8:17:57 PM)

there is another fatal mishap that can occur that no one has mentioned which should be addressed since it can be fatal far sooner than holding to prevent lack of oxygen, some people will collapse or get dizzy  in as little as 3 seconds with death occuring in 4 minutes  and odds of having it occur increase with age  45% of the elderly will have  ands more common in males

In the neck area there is the carotid artery .... manual stimulation where  pressure is placed on that artery can can severe changes in lowering blood pressure and heart rate  which can be fatal   ..I had to learn how to manually stimulate that artery myself on only one siede of the neck at a time and using a blood pressure heart rate monitor so I can see what is happening because I have a heart rhythm disorder in which my heart races at over 200 beats a minute the normal rate is between 60 and 100 ..so when mine races I need to get my heart rate down or rush to the hospital to have meds injected to slow it down to prevent cardiac failure  which is how  I learn about this effect unfortunately it is not all that effective a method for me especially now that my rhythm has become totally unstable without meds to control so the heart rate won't stay down ...and even in a person with a healthy heart ..manually stimulating the carotid artery can be fatal, but with using a monitor I can see the effects  on my heart rate an I am only placing pressure on one side...which is the way I was taught to do by a cardiologist...with a strict warning not to apply pressure to both sides at a time

quote:

Carotid sinus reflex death is a disputed mechanism of death in which manual stimulation of the carotid sinus allegedly causes strong vagus nerve impulses leading to terminal cardiac arrest. Carotid sinus reflex death has been pointed out as a possible cause of death in cases of strangulation and hanging, but such deductions remain controversial. Studies have however suggested that the carotid sinus reflex can be a contributing factor in other mechanisms of death by reducing blood pressure and heart rate, especially in the elderly or in people suffering from carotid sinus hypersensitivity. A carotid massage can also possibly dislodge a thrombus, or some plaque. This could lead to any number of life threatening effects, including, but not limited to pulmonary embolism, heart attack, and stroke. All of these are potentially lethal.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_sinus

I have done some light breath play in the past ..but my partner then only put pressure on the front of the throat  or hand over my mouth and nose for a short bit..never grabbing around the throat and applying pressuring on the  side of the throat where the carotid arteries are...some people have learned to do carotid chokes in the martial arts which can quickly cause an oponent to black out  and will argue that it is safe but there have been reported deaths in cases with police

I have also seen the heart rate and blood response on an ECG when the doctors performed to carotid sinus massage.... I was sent for a carotid artery  ultrasound and everything there was normal  there is no problems with it ...it was the vagus nerve that reacted and cause changes to the heart rate and pulse...even my heart is technically healthy    according to a huge number of tests that were done ... and for the number of times  and length of  the episodes of very rapid heart rates I would have had cardiac failure or heart damage if my heart was not in good shape..  the rhythm problem is being caused my a lung tumor that is aggravating the vagus nerve....  I know I had mentioned this elsewhere and I got slammed for fear mongering and  told it was only an issue because I have heart disease.... which I don't have technically.... so I will produce articles info for both sides

quote:

Carotid sinus reflex death Carotid sinus reflex death has an entirely plausible mechanism, and may not be rare. The carotid sinus nerve complex at the branching of each carotid artery to the internal and external carotid arteries, on each side of the neck under the jaw, is strongly associated with the vagus nerve. Massage of this area is used clinically to slow the heart rate in conditions of dangerous rapid pulse, such as paroxysmal atrial tachycardia (see supraventricular tachycardia), a common presentation in the emergency department. Rubbing of this part of the neck is recommended only with a cardiac monitor (ECG) operating to detect excess slowing (bradycardia) or conceivably cardiac arrest. Massage of both carotid sinus areas is medically discouraged because of this risk, and one is usually enough. It is not unusual to observe a healthy individual display a flat line response on the monitor (no heart beat) for a number of seconds and then spontaneously revert to normal cardiac rhythm without any medical help; this may be in fact fairly common in daily life.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Carotid_sinus_reflex_death/id/1947152

and here is a court case where it carotid choking likely resulted in death
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DB173BF931A25751C0A96E948260

here is the "alleged" reports of deaths by police choke holds ..the articles uses the term alleged

http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

and here is one article that plays down the risks
http://www.datenschlag.org/howto/atem/english/risiken.html






DavanKael -> RE: breathplay (1/21/2009 9:30:22 PM)

Thank you, Maya.  I knew that I had heard about instances as you described but didn't have enough recall of the details to present it here. 
  Davan



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 7:26:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Calla, you can not consent to manslaughter/murder. Any numbers of signed documents won't prevent the top from being charged and found guilty. The best they can do is reduce the charge to accidental manslaughter.


You can't consent to murder/manslaughter -- but it -can- help to establish extenuating circumstances which, if the DA is being generous, and the Judge isn't a hanging judge, and the jury is amenable, might just change a conviction from 1st degree murder to criminally negligent manslaughter, or, during sentancing, might change the death sentence to "20-life".



Lynnxz -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 7:37:00 AM)

C and I are both big on breathplay, including the use of nooses and belts to cut off air supply, although usually it's just a hand clamped over the mouth. While none of it's safe, and the noose probably borders on stupidity, I'd venture that the hand over the mouth is the safest way to go if you want to screw around.  It's the same as holding your breath when you dive if you really think about it. [:D]

As far as precautions, we don't really have any, other than he has his cpr cert, and I'm a nursing student (doesn't help all that much seeing as I'm the one choked, but whatever). I 'would' like to get a oxygen tank set up eventually, it'd probably be good... and would fit in with the medical kink thing we have going on.



marie2 -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 8:09:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Calla, you can not consent to manslaughter/murder. Any numbers of signed documents won't prevent the top from being charged and found guilty. The best they can do is reduce the charge to accidental manslaughter.


You can't consent to murder/manslaughter -- but it -can- help to establish extenuating circumstances which, if the DA is being generous, and the Judge isn't a hanging judge, and the jury is amenable, might just change a conviction from 1st degree murder to criminally negligent manslaughter, or, during sentancing, might change the death sentence to "20-life".



Or, having a signed document that the person consented to breathplay could work against the defendent.  The whole thing with murder and manslaughter is the degrees, which are determined by various circumstances.  For instance, if the guy was unaware that such play could cause death, he might have a better chance at involuntary manslaughter.  But if there is a document proving that he knew the risks involved and did it anyway, he could be charged with a worse degree of manslaughter or even a degree of murder.   

These are just my thoughts as a citizen who could be sitting in a jury box.  If I was one of his jurors, that written consent would work against him. I'd have a lot more leniency if the guy had been clueless of the risk, than if he knew damn well that it could cause death but did it anyway.   The written "consent" wouldn't help to exonerate the defendant, because victims can't consent.   All it does is prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he knew he was taking a serious risk that could possibly, if not likely, cause death. 
 
"Of course he knew he was going to kill her, he even made sure to have her sign a document releasing him from responsibility".  In the hands of a cagey prosecuter that could easily be twisted into "premediation", which of course equals murder.  Of course, I'm not in the legal field, so this shouldn't be taken by the OP as legal advice.  It's just an illustration of how many variables there could be in a case like this. 





DavanKael -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 11:17:08 AM)

The idea of a signed document makes me twitchey. 
  Davan



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 11:21:12 AM)

quote:

If I was one of his jurors, that written consent would work against him. I'd have a lot more leniency if the guy had been clueless of the risk, than if he knew damn well that it could cause death but did it anyway.


So let me try to understand this -- you, as someone who has some exposure and experience, and even chooses to do risky activities on your own, would be harsher on a person who had -learned- about the risks of what they were going to participate in, and who knowingly consented to accepting responsibility for those risks than on a dumb idiot or non-consensual offender who acted without the full knowledge and consent of his companion/victim?

Would you have the same philosophy when dealing with drug companies who gave dangerous drugs to people after doing no preliminary studies to determine the risks of the drug and without offering an informed consent, on the grounds that they "just didn't KNOW what that drug might do -- but we decided to try it anyway" or a doctor who did unauthorized, untested research on unsuspecting patients on the grounds of "well, I was in a hurry, and really, I just didn't know it would kill them, you know... it -might- have helped, if they hadn't died."?

The purpose of informed consent is to place the responsibility for decisions regarding potential life and death or grave-illness-causing situations on the individual choosing to participate, with the understanding that xhe's been informed of the possible risks. To throw that responsibility back on the other participant as being solely and completely hir fault unless they were both uninformed and ignorant  is contrary to all of the tenets of ethical participation and acceptance of personal responsibility. If informed consent documentation is good enough for lethal-drug medical trials and base jumping, it should be good enough for kinky sex. The only reason that it wouldn't be would be because of puritanical pre-judgement of the sexual/fetish aspects, rather than the basis of informed consent and contract law.



marie2 -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 1:27:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

So let me try to understand this -- you, as someone who has some exposure and experience, and even chooses to do risky activities on your own, would be harsher on a person who had -learned- about the risks of what they were going to participate in, and who knowingly consented to accepting responsibility for those risks than on a dumb idiot or non-consensual offender who acted without the full knowledge and consent of his companion/victim?


Firstly,  I didn't mention anything about victimizing a "non-consentual" person. I refered to a hypothetical defendent who knew the risk vs one who didn't.  

I would be harsher on someone (in any circumstance, bdsm or otherwise) who knew the risk of death and decided to chance it anyway.  That's one of the critieria that separates the degrees of manslaughter; knowledge that you were doing something reckless and dangerous.  Bdsmer's don't get a free pass on that.  As a juror, I'm not supposed to apply personal bias, I'm bound to deliberate within the guidelines of the law.  The same law that everyone else has to live by, including myself. It's all part of taking "responsiblity" (like you said) for the "consequences" of your choices.  And one of the possible consequences of this action is that you'll be tried in a court of law the same as anyone else. If you cause someone's death having had  full knowledge of that risk, you face the same consequences that a non-bdsmer faces who causes death by participating in something knowingly life-risking. 

But it's not about what Marie2 would do.  I used myself as an example to make a point.  The point is that anyone on a jury could see it from the same angle I did, so I wanted to present that as food for thought to the OP.   Taking it a thought futher-- How would that consent document (if it WAS allowable discovery in a case) make sense to a jury of non-bdsmers?   I doubt this hypothetical defendent is going to get a jury of his peers who understand bdsm.  I don't think that jury box is going to be filled with twelve official, card-carrying, RACK certified, "lifestylers".  It's going to be a bunch of regular people.  Those regular Joes and Janes sitting in that box are going to see "sex play that went too far, and a girl who ended up getting strangled to death for a thrill and an orgasm", because you know what, that's exactly what it is, when you remove the romantic bdsm packaging and the fancy acronyms.  It's two people who respectively risked death, and a life sentence in jail, for a thrill.  And now you live with consequences of your informed choice.  The same as anyone else would have to.
 

quote:

Would you have the same philosophy when dealing with drug companies who gave dangerous drugs to people after doing no preliminary studies to determine the risks of the drug and without offering an informed consent, on the grounds that they "just didn't KNOW what that drug might do -- but we decided to try it anyway" or a doctor who did unauthorized, untested research on unsuspecting patients on the grounds of "well, I was in a hurry, and really, I just didn't know it would kill them, you know... it -might- have helped, if they hadn't died."?


Again, you're throwing "non-consent" into the mix. I'm speaking of  "knowledge of risk vs no knowledge of risk" as it directly applies to the degrees of manslaughter and/or murder.   Yes, hypothetically the girl consented,  but the courts don't recognize written consent from dead bodies.   

quote:

The purpose of informed consent is to place the responsibility for decisions regarding potential life and death or grave-illness-causing situations on the individual choosing to participate, with the understanding that xhe's been informed of the possible risks. To throw that responsibility back on the other participant as being solely and completely hir fault unless they were both uninformed and ignorant  is contrary to all of the tenets of ethical participation and acceptance of personal responsibility.


Is this quoted legal statute?

quote:

 If informed consent documentation is good enough for lethal-drug medical trials and base jumping, it should be good enough for kinky sex. The only reason that it wouldn't be would be because of puritanical pre-judgement of the sexual/fetish aspects, rather than the basis of informed consent and contract law.


It looks like you're leaning to the other extreme.  You actually seem to want partiality and leniency for bdsmers, without considering the fact that if there's a dead body involved, the victim can't swear that they signed the consent, or that they weren't forced or coerced to sign the consent.  Which is probably why it doesn't hold water.  And I don't know about the drug cases you're referencing, so I can't offer my thoughts on that.



BLGirl -> RE: breathplay (1/22/2009 6:50:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: switch2please

How would one go about safe breathplay?
I have both given and received, both with a switch and we had a very high level of trust.
To experiment with breathplay with a new partner, there any precautions - besides trust, obviously - that can be taken?
Thank you :)



Daddy and I enjoy breath play, although really it is more like blood flow play. My trachea was crushed several years ago, therefore, I can only have hands on the sides now cutting off blood flow. As everyone else has stated, there is no safe breath play and there are risks associated with all of it, but as consenting adults we try to be intelligent about our actions and aware of the dangers. I have been assaulted and was choked out many years ago, this is a totally different sensation, reaction, and ultimate satisfaction.
In short, be aware and thoughtful in your actions, never take for granted that this is like any other time, and always listen to one another. Lastly, enjoy!
 
Cautioningly,
BLGirl



switch2please -> RE: breathplay (1/23/2009 9:14:51 AM)

I don't like hands on my face, but covering the nose and mouth could work. Maybe a scarf? I don't like gags much, but there's a similar psychological appeal...



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