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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:08:20 AM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		I just looked up some responses of the muslim world..and they say Wilders should have his freedom of speech. Even though he attacks them.
I find that very brave of them and it is propably the best way to show they are not what he says and prove him wrong that way.



the whole issue of Wilders going to court..made his party PVV the second biggest in the country.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/30/2009 9:11:53 AM >

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:10:16 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

And many call it freedom of speech.
So./..the circle is around again.

Weird how those who are against extremisme are always so extreme in their reponses.
Guess..people are equal afther all.




lol.. I think we are brothers at heart.. I have noticed the same thing myself... But I must admit I am guilty of it as well.

Butch



nothing wrong with a good discussion... :) even over less good subjects

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:10:40 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I ask you: there are around one billion Muslims on the planet. Who is their spokesperson? 

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:12:24 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I ask you: there are around one billion Muslims on the planet. Who is their spokesperson? 



why do you ask me? Isn't it better to ask them?


< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/30/2009 9:13:22 AM >

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:31:05 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a basic problem with the Muslim culture today… they have trouble separating religion from government. They do not desire to live with another culture… they feel it is their religious duty to convert it or replace it.

Butch


I wonder just how many Muslims that you have actually met? Because I have never once had one try to convert me (Plenty socially acceptable Christians have tried though)


I think you will find that the Muslim religion is spreading throughout the world converting billions. Just because one has not tried to convert you does not mean it is not happening.

Most nations that have a majority Muslim population convert from the existing law system to the Sharia system of laws. This system is usually not compatible with any other system.  It’s certainly not compatible with democratic ideals and rights.

There are a few majority Muslim countries such as Turkey that try to separate religion and government but they are under extreme pressure to conform to the Muslim law.

I seem to remember in the UK some problems with local groups and communities wanting to use the Sharia law. This has also been the case in America and I’ll guess the Netherlands.

This tendency of bring your laws to an adopted society is not intertwining of cultures but an attempt to replace the existing culture.

Butch

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:49:27 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think you will find that the Muslim religion is spreading throughout the world converting billions.



Proof, please?

quote:



Most nations that have a majority Muslim population convert from the existing law system to the Sharia system of laws. This system is usually not compatible with any other system.  It’s certainly not compatible with democratic ideals and rights.



What do you mean, "law system"? What "system"? Which countries are you talking about?

quote:



There are a few majority Muslim countries such as Turkey that try to separate religion and government but they are under extreme pressure to conform to the Muslim law.



Turkey has been a secular state since 1917.  You may not have heard of Mustapha Kemal (aka Ataturk), but he went so far as to forcibly rip the veils from the heads of women. In Turkey, the separation of religion and state is strictly enforced. There is no "Muslim law" in Turkey. It is a highly modern nation (with a very friendly people): one, incidentally, I recommend you visit, should you feel like seeing things for yourself.

quote:



I seem to remember in the UK some problems with local groups and communities wanting to use the Sharia law. This has also been the case in America and I’ll guess the Netherlands.



In the U.K. certain religious groups CAN use their religious courts to solve things such as family legal conflicts. This applies to Muslims and Jews. It's perfectly legal, and accepted by British courts.

quote:



This tendency of bring your laws to an adopted society is not intertwining of cultures but an attempt to replace the existing culture.



Human beings have been intertwining their cultures from times immemorial. This is the basis upon which your country was built: I'm afraid that your discourse is one of division, fear, and ignorance, Butch. Sorry.


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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 9:55:16 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a basic problem with the Muslim culture today… they have trouble separating religion from government. They do not desire to live with another culture… they feel it is their religious duty to convert it or replace it.

Butch


I wonder just how many Muslims that you have actually met? Because I have never once had one try to convert me (Plenty socially acceptable Christians have tried though)


I think you will find that the Muslim religion is spreading throughout the world converting billions. Just because one has not tried to convert you does not mean it is not happening.


Well you see what you initially said and what you said here are two differant things. 'They' as in Muslims do not feel that it is their religious responsiblity. Because if 'they' did then 'they' would all be doing it but 'they' arent so maybe halt with the 'they' which is my point.

See I am not one of those "oh they are ruining our country" type of people because I dont think they are. A wealth of culture is a wonderful thing, diverse groups are interesting. I have never met a Muslim who wanted to completely distort law BUT I want to ask how many laws have you broken? Because I also dont think I have ever met someone who hasnt broken a few.

I have dated a Muslim (he didnt try to convert me and seemed to fit just fine in 'our' culture, with his yummy welsh accent) The thing is though, its not my culture verses their culture. There are muslims that are born into our countries so its just as much their culture. And what is wrong with culture changing? Its not replacing it is it?

Also if that many people are converting have you considered the possability that they like the faith? Or is it all cult brain washing.



< Message edited by colouredin -- 1/30/2009 10:18:36 AM >

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:00:28 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
The thing is though, its not my culture verses their culture. There are muslims that are born into our countries so its just as much their culture.


Bravo.


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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:17:09 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		kittinSol do a quick search on the fastest growing religion in the world.

I said Turkey was different you must not have been reading...BUT... that separation you talk of is being challenged and on the brink of changing.

I will admit I don’t know UK law… But I am glad here in America religion has no part in family conflict decisions that are legally binding. What a can of worms!

Since time beginning one culture has conquered another not intertwined. Yes pieces of the replaced civilization remain but are absorbed and become part of the new more powerful culture.

The truth is not fear or ignorance…just the truth

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/30/2009 10:46:35 AM >

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:38:29 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin


Well you see what you initially said and what you said here are two differant things. 'They' as in Muslims do not feel that it is their religious responsiblity. Because if 'they' did then 'they' would all be doing it but 'they' arent so maybe halt with the 'they' which is my point.

See I am not one of those "oh they are ruining our country" type of people because I dont think they are. A wealth of culture is a wonderful thing, diverse groups are interesting. I have never met a Muslim who wanted to completely distort law BUT I want to ask how many laws have you broken? Because I also dont think I have ever met someone who hasnt broken a few.

I have dated a Muslim (he didnt try to convert me and seemed to fit just fine in 'our' culture, with his yummy welsh accent) The thing is though, its not my culture verses their culture. There are muslims that are born into our countries so its just as much their culture. And what is wrong with culture changing? Its not replacing it is it?

Also if that many people are converting have you considered the possability that they like the faith? Or is it all cult brain washing.




I also believe America is stronger for the wealth of cultures…and that includes Muslims.

But on the world stage I am not as naive as you. You are condemning my views and me because of your experiences with individuals of the Muslim faith. Where I am seeing the actions of nations and basing my views on those actions.

Because I criticize those actions does not mean I am agreeing with the actions of other religions or nations.

The faith as you call it is different from the actions of its followers. Think of all the death and destruction that has been performed in the name of God.

There is nothing wrong with the faith…But there can be in the people who warp and twist its teachings.

This problem is inherent to all religions… not just Islam

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:39:43 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

Why do you keep mentioning extreme right because people see it different then you? There are is more then just the extreme's.


Perhaps you are being humourous? The extreme right is pretty much the subject of this thread!


Yeah, the muslims are the "extreme right."
Who in their right mind would want to convert to islam anyway?
Let's see now, no booze, no drugs, you have to get on your knees 5 times a day to pray, all the women look like they need to shave their feet, they worship a criminal who lived about 1,300 years ago who they think is riding around on a magic carpet somewhere up in space (where there's no OXYGEN!)
Oh sure, count me the fuck in, *NOT!*
They're just as bad as the "holy rollers!" They're on the "extreme right" too.

I need to see that documentary by Bill Maher, "Religiosity."
"So, you believe in a religion that was started by a talking snake?"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/30/2009 10:42:33 AM >

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:44:23 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


I also believe America is stronger for the wealth of cultures…and that includes Muslims.

But on the world stage I am not as naive as you. You are condemning my views and me because of your experiences with individuals of the Muslim faith. Where I am seeing the actions of nations and basing my views on those actions.

Because I criticize those actions does not mean I am agreeing with the actions of other religions or nations.

The faith as you call it is different from the actions of its followers. Think of all the death and destruction that has been performed in the name of God.

There is nothing wrong with the faith…But there can be in the people who warp and twist its teachings.

This problem is inherent to all religions… not just Islam


Firstly I am not American .

Secondly the reason that I am citing individuals is because you are insulting the entire group. I have no problem with people having an issue with the individuals who cause the problems, do that by all means but that isnt what you are doing. You can call me naive but I think it is you that is being led by propaganda. You havent once condemned a nation, no you havent you havent condemned a government of a nation you are condemning MEMBERS of the religon

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:48:43 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


I also believe America is stronger for the wealth of cultures…and that includes Muslims.

But on the world stage I am not as naive as you. You are condemning my views and me because of your experiences with individuals of the Muslim faith. Where I am seeing the actions of nations and basing my views on those actions.

Because I criticize those actions does not mean I am agreeing with the actions of other religions or nations.

The faith as you call it is different from the actions of its followers. Think of all the death and destruction that has been performed in the name of God.

There is nothing wrong with the faith…But there can be in the people who warp and twist its teachings.

This problem is inherent to all religions… not just Islam


Firstly I am not American .

Secondly the reason that I am citing individuals is because you are insulting the entire group. I have no problem with people having an issue with the individuals who cause the problems, do that by all means but that isnt what you are doing. You can call me naive but I think it is you that is being led by propaganda. You havent once condemned a nation, no you havent you havent condemned a government of a nation you are condemning MEMBERS of the religon


Please tell me what I said that was an insult to any group

Butch

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 10:50:28 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Colouredin, don't you think it's just a little ironic that you used the words "propaganda" and "religion" in the same paragraph?
As a recovered catholic I'm not in favor of any religion.
I'd outlaw all of them!

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 11:01:42 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a basic problem with the Muslim culture today… they have trouble separating religion from government. They do not desire to live with another culture… they feel it is their religious duty to convert it or replace it.

Butch


Im pretty sure that many Muslims would find that offensive

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 11:09:38 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a basic problem with the Muslim culture today… they have trouble separating religion from government. They do not desire to live with another culture… they feel it is their religious duty to convert it or replace it.

Butch


Im pretty sure that many Muslims would find that offensive


I don't know why they would think that... it would be in accordance with their beliefs. That statement is not meant as an insult.

That very same statement could be applied to the Christian religion in years past.

Butch

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 1:33:44 PM   
RCdc


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< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/30/2009 1:35:36 PM >

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 1:40:45 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

One would think that a country as open minded as Holland would be a beacon for freedom of speech, but apparently it doesn't apply if you make a movie against Islam.  Muslims have found the short film Fitna by Geert Wilders offensive, and have taken the issue to the courts, who at first decided to drop the charges, but after pressure from Muslim groups have reinstated them.



People are more than entitled to take their disagreements to the courts.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

And anyone remember the Danish cartoons?  



Yes. What about them?

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 1:49:28 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Excuse me, I can't speak for slaveboy and philo, but I'm not a liberal, I'm a pinko commie-loving lame ass leftie. Thank you.



I've been agonising over your identity for a while now - French, English, American, who knows - so I for one am glad this matter has finally been laid to rest, though I was erring on the side of croissant fondling, brie devouring deviant.

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RE: Dutch politician on trial for offensive movie - 1/30/2009 2:26:26 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Although I'm ashamed to admit this, I'm beyond flattered that my identity caused you to agonise  . 

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