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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 4:29:19 AM   
MsDonnaMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: XYisInferior


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

The fact that Gor gets an entire forum of its own on this board, while female supremacy has to be "debated" in an occasional thread, certainly tells us something.  Male dominance is incredibly naturalized in our culture, and affirmed along multiple channels:  female dominance is only very marginally accepted even by people who practice it.



A very good point.

Not surprisingly, I have a hard time agreeing with the rest of your slant on Female Supremacy. Likening it to Gor and the Nazi regime is rhetorically neat, but not very accurate at all. One is based on a fantasy novel, the other patriarchal socialism and totalitarianism.

It's important to keep in mind that many Female Supremacists aren't about hating men or trying to take over the world in a gynocentric coup d’état. I have yet to see a matriarchal Taliban equivalent in our world, and doubt I will.



I don't know..Empress Wu and bloody Mary weren't saints, ya know. Women can be cruel too!


Am I a female supremacist? Yes. I don't need stacks of science books to tell me the female is primary and the male is secondary, though. that's not too hard to figure out if you have eyes and a brain and use them in the real world.



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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:29:38 AM   
XYisInferior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
The frontier of computational biology right now is an attempt to map genomic interactions -- which is a project much more difficult than "merely" mapping the genome itself.  Whether the male or female of the species is "more complex" by this measure is up in the air.  In point after point, you base yourself in a static view of life and development.  However, living beings are dynamic and interactive

And besides, more complex doesn't equal better.




Absolutely. The neural and hormonal syntax of the brain, for instance, is a very good example of this. I'm not clear how we differ on gene interaction, however.

Regarding complexity isn't better: In some operational and architectual contexts, I wouldn't want to take away the value of what you're saying. But speaking of the brain, for instance, it's clearly the most complex (and dynamic) organization of matter we know. I think the value of that beautiful complexity speaks for itself.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:32:32 AM   
beeble


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quote:

XYisInferior wrote:
I'm curious to know what a scientist has to say about the above statements. If you don't nessessarily feel like refuting them, then I can only conclude you just don't like the subject in general.

I don't necessarily feel like refuting them.  I feel like asking you to supply citations for peer-reviewed scientific papers that state that any of these things makes women superior to men.  Because, really, I see no intellectual difference between your argument and the argument, ``Women, on average, have longer hair than men.  Therefore, women are superior.''

beeble.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:33:19 AM   
XYisInferior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia

Am I a female supremacist? Yes. I don't need stacks of science books to tell me the female is primary and the male is secondary, though. that's not too hard to figure out if you have eyes and a brain and use them in the real world.



Incidentally, that's another whole area of discussion no one wants to get into, I'm afraid. Too bad!

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:34:19 AM   
XYisInferior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

XYisInferior wrote:
I'm curious to know what a scientist has to say about the above statements. If you don't nessessarily feel like refuting them, then I can only conclude you just don't like the subject in general.

I don't necessarily feel like refuting them. 



No kidding.

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:35:34 AM   
beeble


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quote:

Observer20 wrote: Why is it that femdoms always have to make websites putting down men?

Always?

beeble.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:44:04 AM   
beeble


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quote:

XYisInferior wrote:
And yet you've not spoken to a great deal of verifiable research spoken of in this thread that isn't pseudo-science at all.

The pseudo-science there lies in your use of scientific facts and `facts' to draw conclusions that those facts do not support.  It also lies in the way that you only cite the evidence that is compatible with your conclusion, while completely disregarding all evidence that is incompatible with it.

beeble.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 7:48:13 AM   
beeble


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quote:

XYisInferior wrote: I'm curious to know what a scientist has to say about the above statements. If you don't nessessarily feel like refuting them, then I can only conclude you just don't like the subject in general.
beeble wrote: I don't necessarily feel like refuting them. 
XYisInferior wrote: No kidding.

And you'll be addressing the rest of my post any time?

quote:

beeble also wrote: I feel like asking you to supply citations for peer-reviewed scientific papers that state that any of these things makes women superior to men.  Because, really, I see no intellectual difference between your argument and the argument, ``Women, on average, have longer hair than men.  Therefore, women are superior.''


beeble.

[Edited to fix spectacularly mangled quoting.]


< Message edited by beeble -- 2/20/2009 7:49:33 AM >


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 2:02:29 PM   
XYisInferior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

XYisInferior wrote: I'm curious to know what a scientist has to say about the above statements. If you don't nessessarily feel like refuting them, then I can only conclude you just don't like the subject in general.
beeble wrote: I don't necessarily feel like refuting them. 
XYisInferior wrote: No kidding.

And you'll be addressing the rest of my post any time?



First, peer-reviewed articles are tremendously difficult to sort through for the average reader, and the data is often quite stochastic and filled with very technical phrasing. You also have to work in the field or pay to have access to many of the more relevant journals, so direct links are difficult to share. I've had access to NEJM for a handful of months now, so I'm happy to quote a list of links associated with a peer-reviewed journal, if you really think it's needed.



XX vs. Xy sex differences, Deterentiation, Mitochondrial inheritance, etc.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/14/1507 - "There are important genetic differences between the 46,XX and 46,XY karyotypes (Table 4). The most obvious is the striking contrast in the size and known patterns of inheritance of the X and Y chromosomes."
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/350/4/367
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/20/2189
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/8/792
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/350/4/323 - "To date, there is no convincing evidence that an ovarian differentiation factor exists."




Females Are Mosaics (previously recommended in this thread)
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/15/1644

"In Females Are Mosaics, Barbara Migeon makes a very strong case that women are superior to men in coping with disease and the environment. This is because they have two types of cells in all their organs, each with one of the two X chromosomes genetically active and the other essentially silent." —NEJM




Discordant genetic Identity in males, male reversed-sex mutations, ect.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/350/4/333
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/350/4/367




Aging differences between males and females (longer female lifespan)
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/8/820 - "Human beings are living longer, women more so than men. Among people 85 years of age and older, there are 4 men for every 10 women."



To recap, I have cited numerous books, articles, and data illustrating my points / facts / theories, all from reputable sources (unless you'd like to call Harvard Press, Springer Publishing, FBI statistics, state health services reports and various books written by recognized authors in the field useless). Keep in mind that many authors and institutions publishing data are not irrelevant simply because they are not openly "peer-reviewed" on the site itself. It takes a tremendous amount of research and organization to harvest information and extrapolate data into a clearly written body of text, and that body of text won't be accepted if it is found to be bogus in premise or construct by any major publisher or authority on a subject.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 2:11:57 PM   
hardbodysub


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This line of reasoning is remarkably similar to fans of a sports team citing statistic after statistic that shows their team is better than another one, even though they consistently lose to them.

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 3:12:32 PM   
beeble


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quote:

beeble wrote: And you'll be addressing the rest of my post any time?
XYisInferior wrote: First, peer-reviewed articles are tremendously difficult to sort through for the average reader and the data is often quite stochastic and filled with very technical phrasing. You also have to work in the field or pay to have access to many of the more relevant journals, so direct links are difficult to share. I've had access to NEJM for a handful of months now, so I'm happy to quote a list of links associated with a peer-reviewed journal, if you really think it's needed.

No, look.  Stop explaining why I couldn't possibly understand any citation you could try to give.  Stop making excuses about the technical language because, first, I write technical papers for a living and second, for all your love of filling your head with technical stuff, you can't even understand a simple request in plain English.  I want you to give me a citation to a peer-reviewed journal paper that says that the factors you've been talking about make women superior to men, period.  Not papers that say, `the Y chromosome deteriorates over time'.  Not papers that say, `women recover better from disease' or whatever else.  Papers that say, `Because of A, B and C, despite D, E and F, women are overall superior to men.'  I want to see that synthesis, that evaluation, in a peer-reviewed journal.

beeble.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 3:45:09 PM   
XYisInferior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble
No, look.  Stop explaining why I couldn't possibly understand any citation you could try to give.  Stop making excuses about the technical language because, first, I write technical papers for a living and second, for all your love of filling your head with technical stuff, you can't even understand a simple request in plain English. 



You should probably stop for a moment and read the sources provided, and stop diverting the topic by getting personal. Once again, this particular source should interest you, considering it's published by Oxford University Press and featured positively by NEJM.

Females Are Mosaics
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/15/1644

Amazon link

"In Females Are Mosaics, Barbara Migeon makes a very strong case that women are superior to men in coping with disease and the environment. "

This speaks to one of the subjects I've brought up several times in this thread. Additional links were provided to support data on other subjects. You keep insisting my sources are irrelevant, but you have yet to provide anything of substance in way of an argument outside of insult. Fine by me if you want to continue down that path, however.

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 4:47:19 PM   
Tavane


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I note that Barbara is a female, and don't know what "coping with disease" means., not to menion "coping with the enviornment". This means nothing to me. It could mean that the group she studied missed less work than men because of calling claiming to be sick, or that with certain specified diseases, they recovered a day earlier, or mentally "coped" with certain ones, as the writer defines "coping". . If you are going to make a point, then make the point, and say what you are claiming. "Coping with the environment" is even worse. The physical enviornment? The work enviornment? The flower garden? What kond of coping? Physical? Mental? Emtional?  How did she define and measure coping? What were her samples, and how were they randomly selected? What kind of control group did she have? Did she "prove what she set out to prove", or did she set out to prove males were superior, and found the opposite. I doubt the latter.

I can say males are physically superior. They are bigger, stronger, faster. However, are they superior at cursive, or sewing, or typing? What is "physical"? What is "superior?

"They" is a gross generalization, in any event. Many females are bigger, stronger, and faster than many males, and I'm confident that Barbara found that many males "coped with disease and the environment" better than many females, whatever she means.

I find this while argument irrelevant. People vary infinitely, whatever gross characteristics one gender might have which are "different" thatn the other gender, generally. We can choose to live in a relationship where the female is "superior" in that relationship, or "supreme" in the context of the relationship.  That's the only reality which is relevant to relationships here.

I can see people studying gender differences for the purpose of which drug or other treatment to use for a particular health problem, if the science is good, and for whatever reason drug x works better for females, and drug Y works better for males.

However, the main and primary purpose of researching gender differences is for pure knowledge and entertainment. It's fun to know some "general" differences, if for no other reason than to have fun with the battle of the sexes in irrelevant but fun conversations. Pulling out some off the wall statistic can generate lots of laughter; and I enjoy reading about gender differences, particularly since I'm a TG, and also have always been the size of a slender female, and look more like a female, and test as a female on a gender test such as on Spark.com. We are all "degrees" of "masculine" and "feminine", physically and mentally and emotionally. I have no reason to believe I'm not 100% genetic male, but physically and emotionally I've always been feminine, to some degree.

We all vary infinitely, and clearly we have intelligence which is virtually identical, and the ability to perform most tasks with the same degree of skill. Nearly all professions don't require that much of your intelligence, in any event. The idea of attempting to establish that one gender is "superior" to another one is frankly silly.

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 6:32:15 PM   
newgirlswitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia


I don't know..Empress Wu and bloody Mary weren't saints, ya know. Women can be cruel too!


Am I a female supremacist? Yes. I don't need stacks of science books to tell me the female is primary and the male is secondary, though. that's not too hard to figure out if you have eyes and a brain and use them in the real world.





I agree with you and I am curious to if you could explain your views on the non-scientifc jargon. Like why do you think women are superior in the real world?


< Message edited by newgirlswitch -- 2/20/2009 6:47:58 PM >

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 8:09:34 PM   
AcademyForSlaves


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Female Supremacy or Female Superiority, obviously it's not for everyone. Some women are into equality but not feminism, others are into switching or they are women that dominate other women, so they might not agree with Female Superiority. Everyone has a different opinion and that's everyone's right.

Me? I live it every day. After working at the Academy for so long it's become a natural part of my life. Give me and my girlfriends an island and I'll be your Wonder Woman.

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/20/2009 8:24:30 PM   
hardbodysub


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As long as you don't try to prove that all females are superior to all males, I say go for it. I'd even like to join you sometime.

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/21/2009 3:32:47 AM   
beeble


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quote:

beeble wrote:  No, look.  Stop explaining why I couldn't possibly understand any citation you could try to give.  Stop making excuses about the technical language because, first, I write technical papers for a living and second, for all your love of filling your head with technical stuff, you can't even understand a simple request in plain English.
XYisInferior wrote: You should probably stop for a moment and read the sources provided, and stop diverting the topic by getting personal. Once again, this particular source should interest you, considering it's published by Oxford University Press and featured positively by NEJM.
[...]
"In Females Are Mosaics, Barbara Migeon makes a very strong case that women are superior to men in coping with disease and the environment. "

*slaps forehead*  I asked you for a citation that says that women are superior, period.  I explicitly said explicitly, `Not papers that say, ``women recover better from disease'' or whatever else.'  I want a source that says just `superior'.

quote:

This speaks to one of the subjects I've brought up several times in this thread. Additional links were provided to support data on other subjects. You keep insisting my sources are irrelevant...

No, I keep insisting that you're using them improperly and drawing conclusions that they do not support.  That is why I keep insisting that you provide a peer-reviewed source that draws the same conclusion as you.  Your total failure to do this, or even to comprehend the difference between what you are doing and what I am asking for, speaks volumes.

quote:

you have yet to provide anything of substance in way of an argument outside of insult

That is simply not true.

beeble.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/21/2009 4:27:06 AM   
PeonForHer


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It's fun to know some "general" differences, if for no other reason than to have fun with the battle of the sexes in irrelevant but fun conversations.
 
Yep! 

For me, sense of proportion needed.  The similarities between women and men are much greater than the differences.

And there's also the question of what, exactly, is supposed to happen after a widespread acceptance of women's superiority over men has been achieved - if that were ever to happen.  We live in a society that is based on the ideals of individualism and meritocracy, like any other liberal democracy.  What this boils down to is that you have to prove that you, as an individual, are better at doing X or Y, than another individual. 

People have a strong resistance to any argument based on the line "I should lead, because I belong to that group of people who are natural superiors".  We've been trying to eliminate that belief for two hundred years - with regard to men being superior to women, ruling class being superior to other classes, whites being superior to blacks . . . . Few are going to want to turn back the clock by reasserting it now with regard to the idea of women being superior to men. 

So you're right: in short, for practical purposes, it's ultimately pointless to argue about it. 

(And, btw, I can sew - actually quite well these days, though I say it myself. )

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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/21/2009 8:06:54 AM   
MsDonnaMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: newgirlswitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia


I don't know..Empress Wu and bloody Mary weren't saints, ya know. Women can be cruel too!


Am I a female supremacist? Yes. I don't need stacks of science books to tell me the female is primary and the male is secondary, though. that's not too hard to figure out if you have eyes and a brain and use them in the real world.





I agree with you and I am curious to if you could explain your views on the non-scientifc jargon. Like why do you think women are superior in the real world?



Well, it doesn't take too much common sense if you look around! Men are always chasing after us.
Not to say women don't go after guys.. but you can't deny men are usually the ones who chase, buy gifts, spend money on us and so on much more.

As far as the men being the secondary sex and stuff..there's a primitive way of looking at it: when a lion attacks the village its the men who risk and sacrifice themselves to defend us. We are the half of the species who carries and bears the child, and we need protecting. This is instinctual in men and a clue in nature about which sex is more disposable. They do a lot of the hard, laborous work in society, too. That's why men are so yummily strong.

ya don't need science to spell it out in black and white for you to conclude all that.


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RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. - 2/21/2009 9:35:42 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia


Well, it doesn't take too much common sense if you look around! Men are always chasing after us.
Not to say women don't go after guys.. but you can't deny men are usually the ones who chase, buy gifts, spend money on us and so on much more.

As far as the men being the secondary sex and stuff..there's a primitive way of looking at it: when a lion attacks the village its the men who risk and sacrifice themselves to defend us. We are the half of the species who carries and bears the child, and we need protecting. This is instinctual in men and a clue in nature about which sex is more disposable. They do a lot of the hard, laborous work in society, too. That's why men are so yummily strong.

ya don't need science to spell it out in black and white for you to conclude all that.




I gotta ask...how do masculine identified females fit into this narrow world view for you? Women protect women all the time...women put themselves in bad situations to protect one another all the time. And women often have no problem standing up from themselves without that guy who's sitting in the corner picking his nose. It baffles me that you think any form of life is disposable. In fact because females last long in the womb there are more women to men in ratio. And yet, you seem to think that men aren't needed? I'd like to see how well you do that reproduction thing on your own since you've "sent" all the men off to slaughter.

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