RE: Why is this a hard limit?

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mc1234 -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/4/2009 3:41:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GabrielleSlave No. i don't feel threatened any more by this in that way, than He does when He gets me to do things with another guy. If He was doing something on His own, separate from me then that would be a different issue, but Wwe have always said that when Wwe include other people in Oour playtime it would be as a couple. You're welcome. :) And yes, I get it - the fear of failure. Sometimes when I'm frozen in place, I ask myself 'what's the worst that can happen?' If you believe his being displeased is the worst, you can ask yourself if you can live with that - if you decide to make this a hard limit. Also - one thing sticks with me in something you've said - you said you didn't negotiate this at the start of your relationship because you were new to BDSM at that point and it didn't even occur to you. I think this is a fair reassessment of your limits, inasmuch as you hadn't spoken of it prior to this point. If he came home and said one day that he wanted to cut off your big toe because he was amused to see you hobble about - a thought that presumably would be as bad to you as this is - hopefully you wouldn't have any problem saying no. Did you discuss amputations at the start? Possibly not. But you wouldn't have trouble saying no to something that would obviously cause you physical harm. I don't see much difference between physical harm and true mental harm. And if you're convinced, after much soul searching, that this would cause you mental distress, then I'd see it as your duty to communicate such to him, and hopefully he will act accordingly. I'd be willing to bet that your time in Amsterdam (which sounds lovely!) has his imagination flowing ... but having 2 serve him is different than having you serve the other woman.

DesFIP -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/4/2009 5:31:09 PM)
One of the reasons people hard limit this is that it can cause enormous amounts of resentment which will cause the end of the relationship. I don't know about the op, but if I had to do something which would make me angry, hurt and resentful and end the relationship, I'd rather end the relationship first without doing the thing I would always regret and never be able to undo. Beyond that, I wouldn't do this to another person. Because I can appreciate an attractive woman in the same way I appreciate a nice painting, but aren't interested in having it on my wall. So it would be incredible rude to say to someone else "I don't find you at all a turn on. I'm going to lick you while trying not to throw up during the process but you need to know that the idea of doing this makes me sick". Yeah, that's a nice thing to do to someone else, let her know she revolts you and you'll never want to look at her again. Now if lying and pretending is okay in your relationship and you think you could lie and pretend to this poor woman, go for it. Be dishonest. Or is honesty only owed to him and you should lie to everyone else?

junecleaver -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/4/2009 5:36:31 PM)
I'm sure there is some sadisticish woman out there who would enjoy it.

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/4/2009 6:14:54 PM)
Only you will be able to establish if this is a hard limit or one you can work past. All the advice here is pretty pointless. The thing is if you are willing to explore or attempt to be pushed past this limit, or if you can sincerely do it. If you do it, will it somehow ruin your relationship? If you do it, will you somehow be permantly effected mentally by it in an ill manner or way?

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/4/2009 8:01:08 PM)
In my opinion, you need to look into what makes this a hard limit for you, not just into the fact that you are resisting the pushing. Why do you not want to engage with a woman? Is it that you're not attracted or is it because you think it's wrong in some way? Once you can figure out that, you can work to either correct or let go or it. Master Fire

Viridana -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 4:52:14 AM)
I honestly don't see why she has to delve into why it is a hard limit. If we take something that is a hard limit for most, like scat, I don't ever recall people incouraging a person to spend soul searching time into gathering why they find it off putting. I don't see people incouraging a person as well to try it slowly to overcome their distaste for it. Why is this any different? I for one have a hard limit against breast bondage. I can delve into for hours why I don't like it. I know why I don't like it. I find the purple colour, veiny, iscaemic looks just utterly cringing. And it doesn't matter honestly if I thoroughly know the reason for my dislike for it..... I still dislike it and it's still a hard limit, I still cringe at the mere thought and seeing a picture of bondaged breasts still is the biggest buzz kill of a promising moment. It is what it is.... just sayin..

RainydayNE -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 4:55:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Viridana I honestly don't see why she has to delve into why it is a hard limit. If we take something that is a hard limit for most, like scat, I don't ever recall people incouraging a person to spend soul searching time into gathering why they find it off putting. I don't see people incouraging a person as well to try it slowly to overcome their distaste for it. Why is this any different? soo soooo soooooo sooooooooooooooooooooo very much true. interesting. nice post.

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:06:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mc1234 And yes, I get it - the fear of failure. Sometimes when I'm frozen in place, I ask myself 'what's the worst that can happen?' If you believe his being displeased is the worst, you can ask yourself if you can live with that - if you decide to make this a hard limit. i think that yes, His disappointment in me not even trying would be harder to bear... quote: If he came home and said one day that he wanted to cut off your big toe because he was amused to see you hobble about - a thought that presumably would be as bad to you as this is - hopefully you wouldn't have any problem saying no. Did you discuss amputations at the start? Possibly not. But you wouldn't have trouble saying no to something that would obviously cause you physical harm. a good point very well made! quote: I'd be willing to bet that your time in Amsterdam (which sounds lovely!) has his imagination flowing ... but having 2 serve him is different than having you serve the other woman. it was lovely yes, because it was us pleasing Him and i cannot wait to do this again for Him in just over two weeks' time! There is a huge difference as you say...

feydeplume -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:10:53 AM)
I think she 'has' to delve into it because she posted here that she wanted to try to understand why this was suddenly an issue for her. I haven't seen anyone push the issue ON her but herself. She seems to feel a need to understand the whys and wheres and whens of this limit for her and is using the forum as a sounding board for working through the various levels and types of interactions, the emotional and mental states, and the physical/skills issues that she has chosen to delve into in her own mind. whatever truth she comes to is her truth, plain and simple. How she finds that truth is also just how she is doing it. It is not like it is unusual for someone to find a limit after they have been playing for a while. Some limits are just so assumed in one's mind that the person never gets around to stating them. But once you do find a limit, isn't it a good thing to find WHY it is a limit? like your example of breast bondage being icky for you; you know why you have this limit and know it isn't just a kneejerk reaction or a fear of failure or something else other than the act itself. That took reflection and thought on your part, just as she is putting thought and effort into understanding this limit.

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Beyond that, I wouldn't do this to another person. Because I can appreciate an attractive woman in the same way I appreciate a nice painting, but aren't interested in having it on my wall. So it would be incredible rude to say to someone else "I don't find you at all a turn on. I'm going to lick you while trying not to throw up during the process but you need to know that the idea of doing this makes me sick". Yeah, that's a nice thing to do to someone else, let her know she revolts you and you'll never want to look at her again. Another very good point. i would not want to hurt anyone's feelings, it really is not in my nature. i mean, if a gay guy was forced to pleasure me and he felt about that as i do now...no that would not be good for anyone would it? quote: Now if lying and pretending is okay in your relationship and you think you could lie and pretend to this poor woman, go for it. Be dishonest. Or is honesty only owed to him and you should lie to everyone else? Honesty and openess are a huge part of why this relationship works. i feel that has to be extended as a matter of course to whoever Wwe play with, no matter what. It is common courtesy, but not just that, without it people can get hurt unintentionally... i do not want to hurt anyone's feelings...

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:15:41 AM)
that's how my former dominant saw my potential menages with other women as a task. he assumed i was willing to have sex with any woman at any time for his pleasure however i had to find and screen the women for him. as you commented, i wasn't wired to be bi and i kept telling him that. since he chose to ignore my objections and reasonings, i walked away. my only advice is to talk to your dominant and tell him what you're telling us.

eyesopened -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:23:01 AM)
beth's answer in hiring a professional makes the most sense. If my Master order this, I would do it but I would most likely fail. Because how am I supposed to MAKE a woman cum while I am crying, gagging, and miserable? How sexy is repulsion? Why would even a sadist make some third party outside of the relationship know that they are disgusting to the very person tasked with pleasuring her? Is that really pleasure? Only if the third party is into humiliation and being the object of repulsion. Finding a woman who wants to be an object of repulsion may be so difficult to find that it makes the task moot. I was once the "third party" and the slave was crying and gagging and unhappy during the whole process and she couldn't have *made* me cum no matter what she did and I left the scene so miserable and emotioanlly screwed up that it took me years to get back into bdsm. Previous to that disaster, I had tried to pleasure a woman and failed miserably and was pretty much like the slave ordered to pleasure me. The Dominant in the above senario had told me that he could "cure" my repulsion to same sex sex by having his slave "do" me first and once I saw how great it was, I would want more. Backfired big time. I never played with that Dominant again, refused his phone calls and ended any involvement and it destroyed our friendship, and we had been good friends for four years prior to the incident.

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:26:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feydeplume I think she 'has' to delve into it because she posted here that she wanted to try to understand why this was suddenly an issue for her. I haven't seen anyone push the issue ON her but herself. She seems to feel a need to understand the whys and wheres and whens of this limit for her and is using the forum as a sounding board for working through the various levels and types of interactions, the emotional and mental states, and the physical/skills issues that she has chosen to delve into in her own mind. Yes, i think you have this spot on. i credit myself with a certain degree of intelligence and common sense and so i find a sudden and seemingly irrational reponse to something to be quite unnerving! Talking and discussing the issues on here is helping hugely, as i have said before and i am very happy i had the nerve to start this. quote: whatever truth she comes to is her truth, plain and simple. How she finds that truth is also just how she is doing it. It is not like it is unusual for someone to find a limit after they have been playing for a while. Some limits are just so assumed in one's mind that the person never gets around to stating them. But once you do find a limit, isn't it a good thing to find WHY it is a limit? like your example of breast bondage being icky for you; you know why you have this limit and know it isn't just a kneejerk reaction or a fear of failure or something else other than the act itself. That took reflection and thought on your part, just as she is putting thought and effort into understanding this limit. i am honestly having a hard time figuring out why this should be a hard limit at all. i mean, He is not going to physically harm me, not saying He is going to flog me til i lose consciousness (though that might be fun...), not asking me to bathe in scat, not saying His dearest wish is to see me with a horse... In all seriousness, what He is asking me to do is, on the surface of it, quite beautiful...giving pleasure to someone else. What could be nicer or more giving? However, my mind does not seem to want to hear rational thought. Plus, the idea that i could possibly insult the other person involved, makes me feel worse!

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:35:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened beth's answer in hiring a professional makes the most sense. If my Master order this, I would do it but I would most likely fail. Because how am I supposed to MAKE a woman cum while I am crying, gagging, and miserable? How sexy is repulsion? Why would even a sadist make some third party outside of the relationship know that they are disgusting to the very person tasked with pleasuring her? Is that really pleasure? Only if the third party is into humiliation and being the object of repulsion. Finding a woman who wants to be an object of repulsion may be so difficult to find that it makes the task moot. I was once the "third party" and the slave was crying and gagging and unhappy during the whole process and she couldn't have *made* me cum no matter what she did and I left the scene so miserable and emotioanlly screwed up that it took me years to get back into bdsm. Previous to that disaster, I had tried to pleasure a woman and failed miserably and was pretty much like the slave ordered to pleasure me. The Dominant in the above senario had told me that he could "cure" my repulsion to same sex sex by having his slave "do" me first and once I saw how great it was, I would want more. Backfired big time. I never played with that Dominant again, refused his phone calls and ended any involvement and it destroyed our friendship, and we had been good friends for four years prior to the incident. Thankyou for telling me this, your and the other slave's reactions are pretty much how i imagine mine would be in that situation. i think i have been so focussed on how i feel and how Master feels, that the other person has become some kind of hypothetical and mythical figure. This has brought home to me that she will be a real person with feelings and emotions just like mine. i have to be so careful, not just for my sake or my relationship, but for hers too.

feydeplume -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:35:56 AM)
Could this be a symptom of the real issue rather than the issue itself? could the "real" hard limit be poly/open and this act, in your mind, is the first step or the dangerous step along that path? I thought i would toss that into the mix because sometimes that has come up. You KNOW a Pro isn't suddenly going to become part of your relationship in a serious day to day sense, but a second lover, well the word says it all doesn't it?

angelic -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:38:28 AM)
~fr~ I am not bi and have no desire to enter that arena. Personally, I would not question myself as to why I don't want to be with another woman (I already know why). What I would question is why "he" wants me to be with another woman.

RainydayNE -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:40:46 AM)
i'm not sure that everything in our heads can be broken down to a rational thought? i think it's good to try to find the reasons for why, but they may not be fully understood for YEARS. you might think you understand, but when you're in the situation, you could end up with something like eyesopened did. on the surface, the "idea" is very beautiful, but the surface lacks the details that make the situation so unnerving. i thought the previously mentioned cutting off a big toe example was pretty great =p a very very wise person once pointed out to me that men who like anal sex but can't find willing females COULD, in theory, get gratification from gay males who would enjoy it. pleasure is pleasure right? however, the rationl theory doesn't hold up to "irrational" reality really does it? some Doms won't even consider taking a male sub. some male subs who can't find a Domme won't consider serving a male Dominant. i know there is all this great lore that women have an easier time overcoming same sex sex issues, but maaaaaaybe, just maybe, it's not true. =p edit: -- fey's second post raises a REALLY good point.

GabrielleSlave -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 6:00:06 AM)
A little off topic....but i have just read Bitterlystung's dreadful news on the Off Topic Discussion board. Puts my problem to shame... In the grand scheme of things, this is not so important...

DesFIP -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 6:22:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GabrielleSlave quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Beyond that, I wouldn't do this to another person. Because I can appreciate an attractive woman in the same way I appreciate a nice painting, but aren't interested in having it on my wall. So it would be incredible rude to say to someone else "I don't find you at all a turn on. I'm going to lick you while trying not to throw up during the process but you need to know that the idea of doing this makes me sick". Yeah, that's a nice thing to do to someone else, let her know she revolts you and you'll never want to look at her again. Another very good point. i would not want to hurt anyone's feelings, it really is not in my nature. i mean, if a gay guy was forced to pleasure me and he felt about that as i do now...no that would not be good for anyone would it? quote: Now if lying and pretending is okay in your relationship and you think you could lie and pretend to this poor woman, go for it. Be dishonest. Or is honesty only owed to him and you should lie to everyone else? Honesty and openess are a huge part of why this relationship works. i feel that has to be extended as a matter of course to whoever Wwe play with, no matter what. It is common courtesy, but not just that, without it people can get hurt unintentionally... i do not want to hurt anyone's feelings... Has he thought about this? Is he propositioning women while telling them how you really feel? Or is he pressuring you to do this while omitting this information? Beyond this is the safety factor which gets a lot heavier if you do indeed hire a sex worker. He's asking you to be fluid bonded with a strange woman, to risk getting a disease. Or is he suggesting dental dams and female condoms?

FullfigRIMAAM1 -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 6:23:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GabrielleSlave Yes, i think you have this spot on. i credit myself with a certain degree of intelligence and common sense and so i find a sudden and seemingly irrational reponse to something to be quite unnerving! Talking and discussing the issues on here is helping hugely, as i have said before and i am very happy i had the nerve to start this Is your sexuality something you can explain rationally/? I agree with the poster that says, no real need to delve beyond the "I love and apreciate women, but feel no sexual attraction toward women, period." I'm not afraid of women or being with one, it is simply not something that works the right way with my libido. quote: i am honestly having a hard time figuring out why this should be a hard limit at all. i mean, He is not going to physically harm me, not saying He is going to flog me til i lose consciousness (though that might be fun...), not asking me to bathe in scat, not saying His dearest wish is to see me with a horse... In all seriousness, what He is asking me to do is, on the surface of it, quite beautiful...giving pleasure to someone else. What could be nicer or more giving? On the surface, if this were just like being asked to go wash the dishes, it would not be an issue. Sexual interaction/intimacy is a lot more complicated, and as such, I will copy my favorite post above... quote: mc1234 Also - one thing sticks with me in something you've said - you said you didn't negotiate this at the start of your relationship because you were new to BDSM at that point and it didn't even occur to you. I think this is a fair reassessment of your limits, inasmuch as you hadn't spoken of it prior to this point. If he came home and said one day that he wanted to cut off your big toe because he was amused to see you hobble about - a thought that presumably would be as bad to you as this is - hopefully you wouldn't have any problem saying no. Did you discuss amputations at the start? Possibly not. But you wouldn't have trouble saying no to something that would obviously cause you physical harm. I don't see much difference between physical harm and true mental harm. And if you're convinced, after much soul searching, that this would cause you mental distress, then I'd see it as your duty to communicate such to him, and hopefully he will act accordingly. I'd be willing to bet that your time in Amsterdam (which sounds lovely!) has his other womanimagination flowing ... but having 2 serve him is different than having you serve the As I've previously mentioned, this may become something you develop a certain amount of comfort with over time, but I don't see it becoming just an act around which you feel nothing, and just obey. M

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