RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (Full Version)

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StrangerThan -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 5:03:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

As Frank put it: "We now effectively own 80% of AIG. They may be able to lay claim to their bonus money, but nothing says they have to remain employed." Since we also control the SEC, I think it's well within our rights to ban these creeps from ever working for an investment firm again... ever.

(There are, apparently, bills on the floor now that are singling out bonus money earned via governmental bailouts, which will tax between 60% to 100% of all that money they lay their gubby little paws on...)

Now, onto the bigger issues...


I'm not a tax lawyer, but enacting law in retrospect has never worked. These bonuses were grandfathered. So will be any tax paid on them.

Again, this is grandstanding. It's allowing righteous indignation and the appearance of a good shepard. And owning 80 percent of the company doesn't stop 165 million going out where it doesn't need to go. As far as owning 80 percent of a business, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't socialism defined by government ownership?

And we're not heading down that path?

I guess it takes a bigger intellect to be able to look over the entire clusterfuck and be able to say, now on to bigger issues. There is no bigger issue facing the country than the economy. We're buying it. You, me, every other soul out there who goes to work. We're also financing all those who don't go to work.

And we're going to bitch, moan, cry and act all indignant that 165 million is paid out in bonuses, while the real crooks, rapists and robbers sit on the sideline crying along with us with several trillion of our dollars in their pockets.

The formula for what's happening has been played out time and time again in politics. Find a scapegoat. Tar, feather, banish, and castigate.. then utter something like now on to bigger issues. It's worked well.

It's time for it to stop working well.

Like I said, Obama's test has nothing to do with this single issue for me. I want the architects fried. A good bit of them are in Congress. If any American citizen is not fully and thoroughly pissed off at the representatives, well, credibility right there drops to about the "they have yellowcake" statement.








TNstepsout -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 5:22:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

quote:

No single company should have the ability to undermine the economic health of a nation should it fail.


Please....by any and all means - I challenge you or any other poster on these boards to explain in detail how the whole system will collapse if Obama undermines these derivative entrenched, parasitical entities from their ability to pay out counter parties by withholding current and future tax-payer-generated bail-out funds....

Take your time.....do the research, plagiarize, do whatever - but explain to these boards how we will see a total collapse if we don't continue to bail out AIG.

I'll be waiting.....





- R



At this point, roughly six months later and hundreds of billions of dollars poured into the economy, we are probably not at such a critical juncture, however at the time that AIG threatened to fail, it would have been catastrophic. The reason why is that AIG insured mortgage backed securities against failure. When these failed, AIG had to cover these investments. The fact that there was insurance guaranteeing these securities is one of the things that made them appealing to people. It seemed they were a safe, conservative investment.

Now you may ask why do we care about a bunch of rich, greedy people who wanted to make money on their money? So what if they get burned. But the fact is that a lot of investment in mortgage backed securities were not individuals, but cities, counties, charities and municipalities all over the world. They invested money as a means to generate revenue without additional taxation or costs to citizens. When these investments began to fail these municipalities lost billions and billions of dollars.  If there were no AIG to cover these losses (or at least a portion of them) the loss of income to these budgets could be crippling.

Keeping AIG afloat softens the blow to these economies that are affected by the loss of so much cash so quickly. If there is no AIG to pay out, the governements of the countries affected would find themselves paying out billions of dollars to help these cities and counties falling into bankruptcy as well as losing billions of dollars in revenue from taxes. Not to mention that if the Fed allowed AIG to fail, and as a result these municipalities all over the world were thrown into Bankrtuptcy, what does that do for the reputation of America as a sound place to invest?

Sure it could be left to fail. It's not absolutely critical that it be bailed out, but the impact to the economy would be deeper and longer and much more catastrophic. This is what happens when the government rests it's reputation on private enterprise but fails to monitor or regulate it.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 6:34:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia

ever notice that, after 9-11, America went looking for Osama Bin Laden...and now we have two new leaders in America...Obama and Biden? curious, huh?


Not really.




MrRodgers -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 10:30:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

So...what do you all think the president should do about this? What would you consider a sucessful resolution to this bonus mess and what do you think will happen if he doesn't bring about some kind of solution satisfactory to the American people?

My understanding that the bonus fiasco ocurred long before Obama's term started.   If there are contracts stating that bonuses are to be paid and the company is still in business then it looks like those bonuses will be paid.  The only way out appears to be if you can embarass the receivers of those bonuses in such a manner that they forfeit the right to collect.

If AIG would have gone into bankruptcy they could have reemerged without being weighed down by many past contractual obligations...The same goes for the auto industry,. If they go bankrupt, many of their union costs would be set aside and they could start up again leaner and meaner.

You've got it. Think about it kinkroids, you work for GM for 20-30 years, they pay you a pension, they pay some if not all of your medical costs.

If GM or in this cae, AIG had gone into bankruptcy, the courts could...wipe ALL of that out INCLUDING bonus or ANY employment obligations. Now what are you go'n to do ? You put in all of those years, and maybe you'll get a 1/3 from PBGC (pension benefit gaur. corp. another taxpayer funded capitalist entitlement) for medical, it's medicare or you are fucked.

Get a grip people, this IS capitalism, financial disaster for you and socialism for the rich...the richest 'socialists' in the world.

The US is already way down below 40th in life expectancy and child mortality. You see how great our system is, we will be working more getting poorer, dying younger and watch more and more of our kids die too.

Let's keep up the good work hey.




hardbodysub -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 10:56:13 AM)

How this can be considered "uninherited" is beyond me. These bonuses were set up long before Obama became president, as was the initial AIG bailout which made no provisions to eliminate the bonuses.




MrRodgers -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 10:58:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

As Frank put it: "We now effectively own 80% of AIG. They may be able to lay claim to their bonus money, but nothing says they have to remain employed."

(There are, apparently, bills on the floor now that are singling out bonus money earned via governmental bailouts, which will tax between 60% to 100% of all that money they lay their gubby little paws on...)

Now, onto the bigger issues...


I'm not a tax lawyer, but enacting law in retrospect has never worked. These bonuses were grandfathered. So will be any tax paid on them.

Again, this is grandstanding. It's allowing righteous indignation and the appearance of a good shepard. And owning 80 percent of the company doesn't stop 165 million going out where it doesn't need to go. As far as owning 80 percent of a business, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't socialism defined by government ownership?

You suffer from the repeated pounding of the word socialism from our partisans and media when nothing could be further from the truth. WE do NOT OWN 80% of AIG, we may own 80% of their problems but have NO control. Get a grip please people. We do NOT own 80% of either common or preferred stock. management is STILL in place on the job and are fucking us.

SOCIALISM WOULD MEAN WE (GOVT.) CONTROL EVERYTHING...MANAGEMENT IS FIRED, BONUS BABIES GET NO BONUSES AND ARE FIRED, WE CONTROL A NEW BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND THOSE RESPONSIBLE CAN GO GET A REAL FUCKING JOB.

Let's ONCE and for ALL, DROP all of this SOCIALISM SHIT...OK ?

These whores on wall street are once again proving they...are whores and they are a $multi-trillion fuck while we the taxpayers don't even get off.






awmslave -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 11:25:33 AM)

It is sad to see US self-destruct. These top managers have created the system of bonuses for themselves. For years they got huge bonuses based on bogus profits. Now many here are saying the system should continue because of contracts, lawyers etc….




StrangerThan -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/17/2009 3:04:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

As Frank put it: "We now effectively own 80% of AIG. They may be able to lay claim to their bonus money, but nothing says they have to remain employed."

(There are, apparently, bills on the floor now that are singling out bonus money earned via governmental bailouts, which will tax between 60% to 100% of all that money they lay their gubby little paws on...)

Now, onto the bigger issues...


I'm not a tax lawyer, but enacting law in retrospect has never worked. These bonuses were grandfathered. So will be any tax paid on them.

Again, this is grandstanding. It's allowing righteous indignation and the appearance of a good shepard. And owning 80 percent of the company doesn't stop 165 million going out where it doesn't need to go. As far as owning 80 percent of a business, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't socialism defined by government ownership?

You suffer from the repeated pounding of the word socialism from our partisans and media when nothing could be further from the truth. WE do NOT OWN 80% of AIG, we may own 80% of their problems but have NO control. Get a grip please people. We do NOT own 80% of either common or preferred stock. management is STILL in place on the job and are fucking us.

SOCIALISM WOULD MEAN WE (GOVT.) CONTROL EVERYTHING...MANAGEMENT IS FIRED, BONUS BABIES GET NO BONUSES AND ARE FIRED, WE CONTROL A NEW BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND THOSE RESPONSIBLE CAN GO GET A REAL FUCKING JOB.

Let's ONCE and for ALL, DROP all of this SOCIALISM SHIT...OK ?

These whores on wall street are once again proving they...are whores and they are a $multi-trillion fuck while we the taxpayers don't even get off.





Actually, I was using your definition of the word socialism.

Maybe I was listening to a partisan.




TheUtopian -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/18/2009 1:12:38 AM)

Let me preface this by saying that Obama's first stroke of the pen, ala his unitary powers, should have been to quash the Graham-Leach-Bliley Act ; henceforth reinstituting Glass-Steagall.

The fact there has not been a peep out of his administration mentioning a desire to re-institute Glass-Steagall, confirms for me what I've known all along : Obama is nothing more than a Wall Street Uncle Tom.

quote:


however at the time that AIG threatened to fail, it would have been catastrophic.


'' Catastrophic'' in what regard? Are you saying the whole world might have been exposed to multiple '' Iceland’s ''?

For one, you can't be at all sure about that.....and even if were true, why should the American taxpayer be required to bail out multiple sovereign countries that engaged in extremely risky and volatile leveraged investment schemes for lucrative financial gain? The American taxpayer--as far as I know---is not a built-in indemnity clause for insurance companies who engage in extremely risky behavior.

quote:


Now you may ask why do we care about a bunch of rich, greedy people who wanted to make money on their money? So what if they get burned. But the fact is that a lot of investment in mortgage backed securities were not individuals, but cities, counties, charities and municipalities all over the world. They invested money as a means to generate revenue without additional taxation or costs to citizens. When these investments began to fail these municipalities lost billions and billions of dollars.


That's not at all true. Within the last two weeks, Bernanke was subpoenaed to appear before a Congressional Committee to answer where the bailout money has gone / who are its recipients?

Bernanke told Bernie Sanders that he could not disclose who the bailout/counter party recipients were because it would ''breach their institutional integrity ''

Now....I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like the money went to foreign governments and municipalities like you mention above....It instead sounds like it went to foreign banks and brokerage houses.

Then we find out two days ago that some of the counter party recipients included Goldman Sachs, at $12.9 billion, and three European banks — France's Societe Generale at $11.9 billion, Germany's Deutsche Bank at $11.8 billion, and Britain's Barclays PLC at $8.5 billion.

So, the American tax payer is essentially bailing out bilious mongrels from other countries....and perhaps the greatest of all parasites from within our own country ----Goldman-Sachs!

The scenario I see that would have transpired would have been this : AIG is seized and forced into bankruptcy by the treasury, its assets are wrapped up and then liquidated to the highest bidder.

We then see a series of chain-reaction bankruptcies by all the counter-parties entrenched in derivatives....and then any US commercial banks forced into liquidation mode has its depositors re-compensated by the FDIC....The FDIC is then re-inflated by the treasury ala the US tax payer.

The cost to let those entrenched in derivatives fail, re-compensating commercial depositors through an inflated treasury-backed FDIC, would have been infinitely less expensive than trying to unwind 1.28 quadrillion worth of negatively-leveraged derivatives.




quote:

Monday, March 16, 2009[image]http://www2.nationalreview.com/images/blog_dotted_divider.gif[/image]
One Quadrillion Dollar Exposure?   [Jonah Goldberg]
Derb! Paging Derbyshire...I need a math check. This guy says the derivative bubble equals 190,000 per person on the planet.
According to various distinguished sources including the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) in Basel, Switzerland — the central bankers' bank — the amount of outstanding derivatives worldwide as of December 2007 crossed USD 1.144 Quadrillion, ie, USD 1,144 Trillion. The main categories of the USD 1.144 Quadrillion derivatives market were the following:
1. Listed credit derivatives stood at USD 548 trillion;
2. The Over-The-Counter (OTC) derivatives stood in notional or face value at USD 596 trillion and included:
a. Interest Rate Derivatives at about USD 393+ trillion;
b. Credit Default Swaps at about USD 58+ trillion;
c. Foreign Exchange Derivatives at about USD 56+ trillion;
d. Commodity Derivatives at about USD 9 trillion;
e. Equity Linked Derivatives at about USD 8.5 trillion; and
f. Unallocated Derivatives at about USD 71+ trillion. Quadrillion? That is a number only super computing engineers and astronomers used to use, not economists and bankers! For example, the North star is "just" a couple of quadrillion miles away, ie, a few thousand trillion miles. The new "Roadrunner" supercomputer built by IBM for the US Department of Energy's Los Alamos National Laboratory has achieved a peak performance of 1.026 Peta Flop per second — becoming the first supercomputer ever to reach this milestone. One Quadrillion Floating Point Operations (Flops) per second is 1 Peta Flop/s, ie, 1,000 Trillion Flops per second. It is estimated that all the data found on all the websites and stored on computers across the world totals more than One Exa byte of memory, ie, 1,000 Quadrillion bytes of data.
There's a lot more, and I'll leave it to others to digest. I'll tell you what. If I had a quadrillion dollars, there would be no more NRO fundraisers.03/16 07:03 AM[image]http://www2.nationalreview.com/images/spacer.gif[/image]Share



As you'll understand after reading this small snipet - It's an impossibility to unwind all of these derivatives. And as folks likes Bernie Sanders are beginning to realize - To try and do so is the creme de la creme of throwing good money after bad.





- R




awmslave -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/18/2009 10:36:35 AM)

From analysis by F. William Engdahl: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12787

"Tim Geithner has announced a novel strategy for ‘justice.’ AIG will ‘reimburse’ the taxpayers up to $165 million for bonuses the company is giving employees. AIG will pay the Treasury an amount equal to the bonuses, and the Treasury will deduct that amount from the $30 billion in government (taxpayer) assistance that will soon go to the company. But he said that the Obama administration hasn't given up on efforts to recoup the money from the employees who got the bonuses. Good luck."

He further suggests the solution: fully
nationalize AIG, 100%, kick out management, declare AIG’s CDS contracts null and void. This would solve the problem.

           This is the test for Obama. Does he have what it takes to show some real leadership and decisive action?





domiguy -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/18/2009 10:58:44 AM)

I always find it amazing how quickly the American public as well as our politicians lose sight of the big picture.  Although the AIG bonuses are disgusting.  So what?

1 thousand million is a billion....AIG has received 170 billion thus far.

This is the equivalent of someone getting their panties in a twist over $1.65 out of $1,700.00.  It is such a small percentage.  When all of our focus should be on the $1,700.00 in this example.

Despicable yes. Truly a drop in the bucket.  Let's stay on point.




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/18/2009 11:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I always find it amazing how quickly the American public as well as our politicians lose sight of the big picture.  Although the AIG bonuses are disgusting.  So what?

1 thousand million is a billion....AIG has received 170 billion thus far.

This is the equivalent of someone getting their panties in a twist over $1.65 out of $1,700.00.  It is such a small percentage.  When all of our focus should be on the $1,700.00 in this example.

Despicable yes. Truly a drop in the bucket.  Let's stay on point.


I couldn't agree more. The bonuses are in my opinion a non-issue, ugly and stupid yes, but earth shattering no. If anything, get the people who received the bonuses in a room and tell them point blank that if they are so valuable, then they will solve AIGs problems, and they have 365 days to do so. Make the ugly and the stupid look good and smart, the people receiving these bonuses are not idiots, they just got greedy, stupid, reckless whatever. They can fix it. And if not, then they are out a job. My [sm=2cents.gif][sm=2cents.gif]




TheUtopian -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/18/2009 4:14:01 PM)

Awmslave : You're one hell of a good and studious poster.


quote:



From analysis by F. William Engdahl: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12787


Bill Engdahl is a brilliant dude....and every so often he is on the radio.

The poster with the moniker ''Coreysub '' mentioned in another thread how he wished all the message board participants could visit DC and see the ''testosterone'' {Laugh} running the country. Well....It would be my wish that all the message board participants could listen to Bill Engdahl for about three hours next time he's on the radio.


quote:



He further suggests the solution: fully
nationalize AIG, 100%, kick out management, declare AIG’s CDS contracts null and void. This would solve the problem.


Bingo!!  This is precisely the action Bush/Paulson should have taken from the onset. But its my feeling this was the design all along : They knew it was a total impossibility to unwind all these derivatives.

So....the plan was to use AIG as a zombie and funnel tax-payer bailout money through this entity into the ''chosen'' inside banks and brokerage houses that were totally insolvent and re-inflate them that way...

Then, after the ''chosen'' are re-inflated, you send Geithner/Obama/Gordon Brown out to tell the masses that all the remaining participants in the derivative debacle would essentially have these contracts declared as a ''dead letter.''






- R

         





maybemaybenot -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (3/18/2009 4:27:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

How this can be considered "uninherited" is beyond me. These bonuses were set up long before Obama became president, as was the initial AIG bailout which made no provisions to eliminate the bonuses.


Yes, the bonus's were set up, but the additional bail out money came from Obama and company. Geitner and Obama gave them more bailout money, asked Geitner's buddy to take over the reins at AIG for zero salary, made no stipulations on how that money was to be used.
He inherited it, cuz he gave them our money. You don't think they were aware there were bonus's lined up ? You don't find it odd that Geitner knew of the bonus's but didn't tell Obama for two or three days ? Obama said Geitner is the only man for this job. He hand picked him.  So yes, it is un inherited. The mess was made messier by this administration.

                         mbmbn




domiguy -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (6/4/2010 3:43:25 PM)


doh




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (6/4/2010 4:37:05 PM)

The Government does not step in and save small business owners from their own stupidity and bad practices. I think the Government should should let big businesses sink themselves. Sincerely, it doing very little for Big Business to take responsibility for thier own stupidity.

Fuck AIG, Enron, and BP.. send them all to the grave. Let some other business that has their shit more together take over and replace their sorry stupid asses.




TheHeretic -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (6/4/2010 5:45:27 PM)

Trying the Lazarus trick, DG?




DarkSteven -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (6/4/2010 6:00:07 PM)

It's.. it's... it's ALIVE!!!!!!!!




thornhappy -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (6/4/2010 6:29:44 PM)

That was damn spooky!




DomMeinCT -> RE: Obama's First Un-inherited Test (6/4/2010 7:26:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

That was damn spooky!


You're not kidding.




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