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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/24/2009 7:31:34 PM   
paddlebottom


Posts: 18
Joined: 2/15/2009
Status: offline 		Slaveis  owned by a  masterfor life

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/24/2009 7:33:10 PM   
paddlebottom


Posts: 18
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Status: offline 		Submisive issimilar not forlifepersons choseit!!!!!

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 12:44:51 AM   
DelilahDeb


Posts: 429
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline 		I simply draw a line: I don't own anyone. At all. Ever. So those individuals who identify as a slave are not individuals that I am likely to play with except simply as a top to their bottom (assuming we negotiate all else to our joint satisfaction). When I was but a tadpole learning to masturbate because it felt so good, I also experienced the toxic emotion we call "jealousy"—simple sibling jealousy of my only parent's time & attention to a sib. And the emotion itself horrified me (at about age seven) for its irrationality and how it made me feel: absolutely squicked, shuddery, appalled. And then I looked at the emotion itself (sorry, I really was a little logic-headed philosopher at times) and saw how my monkey brain was trying to own my mother. And I spit in the face of that emotion, tore it out by the roots, and tossed into the psychic fire of disgust.

So I do not own slaves. I don't use the language of ownership. Possession, sure, but only in the linguistic sense: my poly lover, a sub of mine, my ex-husband, a neighbor of mine, my sister. All these my, mine, terms specify relationships, not ownership.

I do enjo my interactions with play partners. Those partners with whom I developed successful relationships have been submissive, and my enjoyment of bottoming does not make me any less dominant by habit. (Hey, when you give detailed instructions to the people fisting you, between orgasms and screams…well, you might be a dominant.)

I don't know if I've given you any answers that you find useful, but I hope I've given you food for thought. Your mileage will vary.

Lady Delilah Deb

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 12:58:38 AM   
E2Sweet


Posts: 649
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
Status: offline 		I pretty much go with whatever people call themselves these days... I know you might have been hoping for a more clever reply, but this topic always ends in a big 'ol argument anyways... 

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 1:13:28 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline 		Actually DelilahDeb you have given a different response then most of what I've read. I was trying to figure out if there were certain accepted definitions so I could better gauge how I want to communicate with potential Mistresses (and to just understand this a bit better). I have a lot of discomfort with the idea of ownership. I don't want to own anyone and I sure don't want anyone thinking they own me...(well other then for an evening - smile)...so I was wondering is that a dividing line between sub and slave?

I want to be able to open myself to giving/submitting to a Mistress, to trying to please her and enjoying myself in the process, but I know it's rather unlikely I'll feel comfortable with someone even in a play sense thinking I'm their property. I respect if others feel this way/enjoy this; however I don't like ever feeling like an object. I don't know if that's part of being a woman in our society, but on a deeper level, something bothers me about even another women thinking she 'owns' me in any form.

Ironically I know I could commit to a Mistress and be her 'sub' but there just has to be a strong mutual bond/attraction and the idea of ownership to me removes my identity in a sense. Am I taking this idea to literally? I guess if the right femme Mistress grabbed a hold of me, all my silly notions might disappear...

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 4:59:27 AM   
jstmi


Posts: 85
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		to me a submissive serves her Dominant and has limits that are respected, tested but not broken, and this is communicated to the Dominant. a slave has no limits and serves without question.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 8:51:21 AM   
darchChylde


Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
Status: offline 		How about this.....  I am proud and happy to see myself as owned, and the day I was collared was one of the most joyous of my life.  But I still cannot abide the term slave in how I refer to myself.  Others might see me as such, Ma'am might even one day see me as Her slave; but without some great change in perspective, i can't see myself accepting such a label.  I am Her collared submissive and Her willing property, but not a slave.


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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 9:19:06 AM   
MzticStormz


Posts: 59
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline 		I see a slave as someone who has no money of his or her own.  A slave may work but turn the profits over to the owner and doesn't have much of a life outside of the service that he or she has committed to.  The owner makes sure that the slave has what is needed in order to do their survive and do their job (be it service to the owner, working, or what ever the situation calls for)  A slave is provided for, taken care of (including medical, dental, meals, clothing, education etc.. Also to me, a slave is told how to behave, has little to no limits and is "kept".

I see a submissive as being his or her own person who chooses to serve, perhaps be owned, has a friends, hobbies and activities outside of the service provided.  He or she provides for him/her self, makes choices, and maintains their selves.  A submissive may still be just as committed as a slave to the lifestyle but limits are honored, and he or she may even have a separate life from the Dominant.

As someone said, everyone has their own version of slave/submissive so in each case it needs to be talked out and defined with each new relationship. 

Mz Stormz

edit to note - actually in reply to LAgirlsub rather than darchChylde

< Message edited by MzticStormz -- 3/25/2009 9:21:17 AM >

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 2:35:24 PM   
beeble


Posts: 799
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From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

LAgirlsub wrote: Ironically I know I could commit to a Mistress and be her 'sub' but there just has to be a strong mutual bond/attraction and the idea of ownership to me removes my identity in a sense. Am I taking this idea to literally? I guess if the right femme Mistress grabbed a hold of me, all my silly notions might disappear...

I identify as being owned by Kita but I'd never expected to feel that way about somebody.  It's a trust thing: I trust that she'll take good care of me, as she would with any possession she values.  She owns me because I give myself to her and, ultimately, if she were to betray that trust, I would stop giving myself to her.

So, I fully understand if ownership in whatever sense isn't something you want.  I can't see it as being a barrier to finding someone: somebody who insists on imposing something on you that you're not ready for probably isn't the best choice for a Mistress, anyway.

beeble.


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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 2:37:37 PM   
beeble


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From: UK
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quote:

darchChylde wrote:
How about this.....  I am proud and happy to see myself as owned, and the day I was collared was one of the most joyous of my life.  But I still cannot abide the term slave in how I refer to myself.  Others might see me as such, Ma'am might even one day see me as Her slave; but without some great change in perspective, i can't see myself accepting such a label.  I am Her collared submissive and Her willing property, but not a slave.

What he just said.

beeble.


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Kita's owned slutpet.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 3:09:07 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Slave is a noun while submissive is an adjective that begs a noun to follow it (Ie: submissive partner, submissive male, etc.). 
That having been said, going with the standard usages and synthesizing that with the operational usages in my skull, I would say they're both on the s-side of the continuum with slaves being closer to the total power exchange (TPE) extreme of the continuum.  I think the terms can get slippery as they are used interchangeably but I don't do so.  I have also never desired to be designated a slave, however in an interesting discussion with a friend whose wife is his slave, on the matter of distinctions, he listed specific items of power exchange that, under the right conditions, I'd be fine with, so potential for fluidity on the continuum, I think may be there for some depending on their inclinations and their relationship(s). 
  Davan

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(in reply to LAgirlsub)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 3:36:39 PM   
beeble


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From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

DavanKael wrote: Slave is a noun while submissive is an adjective that begs a noun to follow it

Actually, it's a perfectly normal process in English for an adjective like `submissive' to turn into a noun.  For example, `dominant', originally an adjective, has been used as a noun meaning, `a thing that is dominant' for well over a hundred years.  `Itinerant' was used as an adjective for 350 years and `primary' for over 200 before its first known use as a noun.  And, before you bemoan the death of the English language, those two transformations happened in the mid-1600s.

beeble.


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Kita's owned slutpet.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 4:17:56 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Think my sentence following the one you clipped covers it, beeble.  :> 
  Davan

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May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to beeble)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/25/2009 5:42:39 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

darchChylde wrote:
How about this.....  I am proud and happy to see myself as owned, and the day I was collared was one of the most joyous of my life.  But I still cannot abide the term slave in how I refer to myself.  Others might see me as such, Ma'am might even one day see me as Her slave; but without some great change in perspective, i can't see myself accepting such a label.  I am Her collared submissive and Her willing property, but not a slave.

What he just said.

beeble.

What they said.

I do not see "slavery" as some deeper/more committed form of submission, like you might "upgrade" to a slave, or to being a slave, after X amount of time.

Pick whatever label you like for yourself, I'm really not at all fussed, but, I will attach my own value judgements to each label and not take yours.  I think we can get very caught up in language and labels and needing boxes.  Really, the only box I want to be in is that cage in the playroom we built last weekend.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/26/2009 12:27:43 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline 		OK...so my newbie confusion over these terms is that fundamentally there are 'some' expectations 'generally' what a submissive (yes I agree beeble - noun and adjective) and a slave is. It might be looked at on a continuum of 'submission' and it seems like if we do use the term ownership, we're mostly agreed that implies slave.

From my extremely limited experience so far (that being reading), I've seen the two terms used interchangeably which is why I was confused how each is 'on average' used. I do appreciate all the answers and shades of meaning. I feel more comfortable now with what I thought how I see myself which is submissive. Thanks everyone.

(in reply to IvyMorgan)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/26/2009 12:31:38 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline 		Mz Stormz, the way you described how you define a slave sounds like an employee. Do you take care of your slaves with medical, dental and the rest? And do you actually take their income? I don't mean this to sound derogatory, I'm just plain curious.

(in reply to MzticStormz)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/26/2009 10:28:04 AM   
MzticStormz


Posts: 59
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline 		  
LAgirlsub, my definition is my opinion and I have come to it through the years of being out in the community and knowing those who have been successful (and not so successful) in maintaining either a lifestyle type household or family.
An employee gets to keep their salary.  I wish to make clear that I have never had the desire to own a slave as I have defined them but through the years I come to know households that do own slaves and make it work well.  The working households I know that own slaves treat them as they would a good horse. (The best metaphor I could think of at the moment to illustrate my point) The owner keeps the money that the horse earns, but the owner has to provide for that horse with housing, bedding, food, vet services, the equipment and training to do the job that the horse needs to bring in the income and maintain mental and physical health while doing it.   The people that I know that are living as a slave do work to provide themselves with the medical insurance through their jobs, I know a few that married their slaves so that the Master could provide medical through his work but in one way or another the slave is provided for.   Yes I see a slave as having to turn their money over to the Dominant.   The situation can be exploitive but it also can be very loving where a Master even provides spending money, a savings account (just in case the slave decides to leave-being as this is USA and true slavery is not legal).  This is why it is so important for a slave to know what all they are walking into before entering into a contract.

I personally prefer and enjoy submissives I hold my submissive accountable for maintaining an outside life.  I prefer more of a family atmosphere over a household situation as well.   I do not wish to take money from a submissive other than his portion to help cover his expenses in the home just as any adult family member would.

One last note; To me the term submissive could be interchanged with boyfriend (but of course we know there is much more to it than simply a boyfriend) being as there is more of an emotional personal investment,  where as the term slave is more as if the person is a possession or a thing to be owned.  Also keep in mind that a submissive can enter into a temporary slave contract (such as for a week or weekend) from time to time with his Dominant.  This is the wonderful thing about this lifestyle is that it is what you and your partner make it.

Online I do see slave/submissive used interchangeably and even out in the community it is now being used interchangeably but it did not use to be that way as much.  So these days one has to be open to this fact and then simply ask the one that has chosen the label about their definition to make sure that you both are on the same page. 


Mz Stormz

< Message edited by MzticStormz -- 3/26/2009 11:10:06 AM >

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/27/2009 8:10:58 PM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline 		Mz Stormz, as I'm learning more and educating myself on the lifestyle in general, I think I get the general meaning. For ex, I have a coffee date with a Mistress who doesn't have slaves, but submissives. I find that already we're basically on the same page...because I think we're talking the same language.

And I'll keep in mind two things you mentioned...that for you, a submissive is more of an emotional connection (as you said like a boyfriend) and that a temporary situation like a weekend could be worked out. I just never thought of it. Sure, why not? I realize that's between two people and hopefully the communication is there...it seems the main problem to avoid is not discussing/communicating (before being actively involved with your play partner). Thanks for your response.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/27/2009 8:14:30 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		~ fast reply, without reading the whole thread ~

My Master defines it very simply as this, which I'm inclined to agree with...

submissive: s-type more or less defines the limits

slave: D-type more or less defines the limits


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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/27/2009 8:40:01 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		It seems the popular basic definitions over the years have been that a submissive has limits and a slave doesn't.  I find it all pretty silly actually, as I do believe that all sane human beings have limits, at least in a very basic sense. 

The longer I have had ds experiences and the more relationships that I've had, the more I've come to the personal conclusion that masters and slaves and doms and subs and owners and keepers are basically mythical.  At the end of the day, we're just people engaging in relationships and relating in a particular way to another human being under a particular dynamic that's mutually fulfilling.  And there are just too many infinite variations and variables that can play into that dynamic or cause it to change, evolve, waiver, deepen, or even dissolve sometimes, therefore I don't see how it can be catagorized or defined.  But then I don't see slavery (in our context) as being actual anyway, so the term "slave" may as well be fairie princess, or any other fantasy label you want to apply to it.  

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