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Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 10:07:33 AM   
RealityLicks


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Guardian Video: Gaza - human shields                                                                                                                                                  Guardian Video: Gaza - war crimes                                                                                                                                                                                Guardian Video: Gaza - attacks on medics                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         To follow up on last month's exchanges concerning the Israeli incursion into Gaza, I thought I'd post these videos.  Taken together with last week's admissions from troops that they did fire on civilians, a picture is emerging that completely supports the critics of the IDF.
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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 10:37:24 AM   
UBsincere


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Gaza... Because you saw it on the media, that makes it so?

I know I am not a close follower of these situations, but what rules do terrorists follow?

Where are these rules of terrorist engagement posted?

I would like to read them so I can be better informed.

If the boy, tied to the jeep, keeps it from being hit by terrorist fire, seems to me everybody wins?

They can shoot rockets into Israel, but that is OK, as long as Israel doesn't cross the border to stop the rockets?

We need to learn to live in peace with each other!


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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 11:10:51 AM   
MadAxeman


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Thank you for bringing this to the boards Reality.
While I was still checking the links, the thought arose that there will be deniers of any evidence soon appearing on this thread. Either it's staged by terrorists, lies, the journalists are discredited or the innocent civilians for some reason deserve it.
And here the come.



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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 11:17:09 AM   
SirVmee


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9/11

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 11:47:42 AM   
MadAxeman


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Because of 9/11 innocent people can be used as shields?



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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 11:52:23 AM   
kittinSol


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Nah it's coz they're all moozlims innit.

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 11:56:57 AM   
MadAxeman


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I thought the haul of one eyed windbags would be better than this. The truly disappointing people have layers of let down.

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 12:30:03 PM   
kittinSol


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They're all busy watching Faux news, MadAxe.

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 12:38:19 PM   
piratecommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UBsincere

If the boy, tied to the jeep, keeps it from being hit by terrorist fire, seems to me everybody wins?



What, including the boy? What does the boy win?

Pirate

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 12:38:34 PM   
DomKen


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So some bad stuff happened. Does Hamas launch rockets and mortars from civilian areas? Does Hamas wear uniforms and present seperate targets from the civilians in Gaza? In short is there any possible response to Hamas' attacks against the Israeli civilian population that would not have resulted in these incidents? If Hamas chooses to hide amongst civilians does that mean Israel should simply capitulate and wade into the Med until they all drown?

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 12:49:05 PM   
piratecommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

does that mean Israel should simply capitulate and wade into the Med until they all drown?



I'm not sure that wading into the sea and drowning is the most shrewd of military tactics, I'm sure it would be popular with Hamas. Mind you, wading into the sea and drowning takes guts, those who hide behind children and use them as human armour do not have guts, ergo they wont all drown.

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 12:51:26 PM   
Kirata


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More...
 
Haaretz
 
Reuters
 
K.
 
 
 
 

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 12:51:29 PM   
KaineD


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I think the situation in Gaza represents a truely disdainful and... what I pretty much consider to be an evil attitude western people have of Muslims.  Muslims are not to be trusted.  Israel are the good guys.  The Palestinians are the terrorists.  So what if thousands of them died, the Israelis are not responsible because they had to fight terrorists.  [B]Everyone knows Hamas use human shields.[/B]

There's just this reprehensible bias that comes from almost zero fact checking.  The Israelis are OUR allies and we must support them.  Why?  Partly religious reasons?  Like I pointed out, there is an undercurrent of feeling in the west that Muslims can't be trusted.  There is also the highly succesful propeganda war Israelis have been waging for years, that the Palestinians have no hope of counter-acting.

Initially, coming up to the end of 2008, I was critical in my own mind of the actions of Hamas.  What are these stupid rocket attacks going to accomplish, I asked myself.  And then, the Israelis let loose, weeks before Obama's inauguration, as we all seen.  Well, not seen, as the media were barred from Gaza.

Nevertheless, tidbits of truth were coming out.

I kept up do date, as some of you may know.  I realized, in my own mind at least, that the Israelis were going much too far.  I also realized, that mainstream media (particularly American media, sorry Americans) were NOT reporting objectively.

Everyday, IDF and Israeli spokes people were on the news stations, giving out their propeganda to journalists and reporters who were not willing to ask any difficult questions.  They would talk about how they wanted peace, but they were fighting against extremists, unreasonable people who wanted to wipe Israel off the map.  But I looked at their actions, and asked myself, who is trying to wipe out who?  Hamas talk tough sometimes, but they hardly have the means to kill a dozen people in the few weeks it took Israel to kill thousands.

In a small way, I don't know, I wanted to inform people.  Inform them here and elsewhere, with what I and others had found.
But again and again I was met with frustration.  I've been outright labelled anti-semitic, even here.  As most people are labelled when they dare criticize the actions of the Israeli government and their military.  I've been met with old, tired arguments of who started what.  I even argued with a guy in real face to face chat who tried to bring up events before the birth of Christ to justify the current actions of the Israelis.

And again and again, the old defamations of the Palestinians - they use human shields.  According to who?  The IDF.  How convenient.  But that's the propeganda war.  Repeat a lie or a half truth over and over, and it becomes the truth.  Or at least, people assume its the truth.  And that is where the danger lies.

I've long told myself that evil doesn't exist.  The idea of evil is something with heavy basis in religion, a phony idea of maelevolent forces guiding people, or people that are just outright malicious to the core.  Complete bullshit.  In a way the term 'evil' undermines the crimes humans commit against each other.

But if evil exists, it has its basis in ignorance, stupidity, and self-denial.  And then it grows out from there.
The natural reaction for some people immediately following 9/11 was to nuke Afghanistan.  There is no logic or reason behind such a thing but that's how some felt.  Evil, in my view, is the attempt to justify completely inhumane acts.

The Israeli people have had to deal with suicide bombers and rocket attacks.  It is natural that a current of hate and anger builds up among the people and seeps into the military and government.  So, they lied to themselves that they were going to end Hamas once and for all, and instead ending up killing as many people and destroying as much of Gaza as they could get away with in a few short weeks.

And their self-denial is so powerful, and the ignorance in the west so prevailant, that everyone tricks themselves into thinking the Israelis are doing this purely out of self-defense and even altruistic purposes (getting rid of the evil terrorists).
When the reality is that the IDF used human sheilds, phosphorus bombs, targeted UN buildings, knocked Gaza back to the stone age and killed over 1, 400 people.

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 1:11:46 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So some bad stuff happened. Does Hamas launch rockets and mortars from civilian areas? Does Hamas wear uniforms and present seperate targets from the civilians in Gaza? In short is there any possible response to Hamas' attacks against the Israeli civilian population that would not have resulted in these incidents? If Hamas chooses to hide amongst civilians does that mean Israel should simply capitulate and wade into the Med until they all drown?


I can only assume you didn't even watch the clips.

Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have found no evidence Hamas have used human shields.

Why did Israel bomb over half of Gazas medical facilities, when the UN gave Israel the locations of those facilities?

They hit 59 medical facilites.

You're telling me we should simply take the IDF at their word that Hamas were in these buildings?

< Message edited by KaineD -- 3/23/2009 1:13:53 PM >

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 1:29:05 PM   
Kirata


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The whole thing is just a horrible situation. If I were charged with the protection of my country's territory and citizens from a bunch of hate-spewing psychos killing them at every opportunity, I would say "Stop" approximately once, and then not give a shit. Indefensible maybe, but my priorities would just have to adjust to the situation.
 
On the other hand, from some of what I've read, a lot of the civilians (if not all) are truly innocent victims of both sides. They are forced to provide shelter and aid to the psychos, and end up having their home flattened for their trouble. So on reflection, I think I might adopt the policy of arming the civilian populace so they could defend themselves and deal with the psychos in their midst. But with the caveat that, if you don't, I will.
 
I might very well end up in a worse place than I started from. There would certainly be a lot more people who could shoot back, and they'd be using the weapons that I gave them to do it with. But there wouldn't be any more talk about poor unarmed civilians caught in the middle, helpless to do anything about the psychos who launch mortar rounds from their schoolyards, and I could happily wipe the whole fucking place and still enjoy breakfast.
 
Ah but the children, what about the children? I would probably spend the rest of my life wondering why they didn't think about that. But faced with a choice between wondering that, or burying my own, I'd just have to live with it. I still couldn't defend it, but I'd live with it.
 
K.
 
 
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/23/2009 1:44:17 PM >

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 2:52:11 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So some bad stuff happened. Does Hamas launch rockets and mortars from civilian areas? Does Hamas wear uniforms and present seperate targets from the civilians in Gaza? In short is there any possible response to Hamas' attacks against the Israeli civilian population that would not have resulted in these incidents? If Hamas chooses to hide amongst civilians does that mean Israel should simply capitulate and wade into the Med until they all drown?


I can only assume you didn't even watch the clips.

Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have found no evidence Hamas have used human shields.

Why did Israel bomb over half of Gazas medical facilities, when the UN gave Israel the locations of those facilities?

They hit 59 medical facilites.

You're telling me we should simply take the IDF at their word that Hamas were in these buildings?

Hamas doesn't use human shields? Where are the military bases they launch the rockets and mortars from? Where are the military facilities, clearly labeled as such and seperated from civilians, where the suicide bomb vests and car bombs are built? Quite simply Hamas exists by hiding amongst civilians.

As to the clinics and hospitals it is quite well known that Hamas has used such buildings to house their personel. Often the store front clinic is the front for a bomb factory. That way if Israel attacks or the bomb factory blows up due to human error Hamas can blame the IDF for attacking a "clinic."


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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 3:07:54 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas doesn't use human shields? Where are the military bases they launch the rockets and mortars from? Where are the military facilities, clearly labeled as such and seperated from civilians, where the suicide bomb vests and car bombs are built? Quite simply Hamas exists by hiding amongst civilians.


What you are describing is called guerilla warfare.  When you're waging a war in the modern world against a much superior force, you don't sit out in the open.  Hamas didn't invent guerilla warfare.  That is not the definition of human shields.

The IDF however, did in fact use human shields.  Can you explain that to me?

quote:

As to the clinics and hospitals it is quite well known that Hamas has used such buildings to house their personel. Often the store front clinic is the front for a bomb factory. That way if Israel attacks or the bomb factory blows up due to human error Hamas can blame the IDF for attacking a "clinic."


"Quite well known", by whom?  Provide links.

59 medical facilities?  Is there any proof or even any claim by the Israeli forces that Hamas were hiding in ALL of them?  Human error??  59 facilities??  With IDF's advanced targeting technology?

It's just past the point of reasonable doubt, really.

Did you watch in one of the clips where clearly marked medical personel were fired upon?

< Message edited by KaineD -- 3/23/2009 3:09:00 PM >

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 3:24:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

What you are describing is called guerilla warfare.


By that logic, rape is merely a form of persuasion.
 
K.
 
 

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 3:39:08 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

By that logic, rape is merely a form of persuasion.
 
K.
 


That comparison doesn't even make sense.

When you're in an army with much lower numbers than the opponent, and much lower quality weapons, you use the urban environment to move and hide.  It's not just terrorists that do it.  I'm sure US troops did it on the ground in Iraq, too.  Using buildings for cover and what not.

But we don't say "they're using human shields because they're hiding in an urban environment".  Realistically, where else do you go?  That's where you LIVE.

While, the Israeli forces are the ones who were ACTUALLY using human shields. 

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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/23/2009 3:42:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas doesn't use human shields? Where are the military bases they launch the rockets and mortars from? Where are the military facilities, clearly labeled as such and seperated from civilians, where the suicide bomb vests and car bombs are built? Quite simply Hamas exists by hiding amongst civilians.


What you are describing is called guerilla warfare.  When you're waging a war in the modern world against a much superior force, you don't sit out in the open.  Hamas didn't invent guerilla warfare.  That is not the definition of human shields.

The IDF however, did in fact use human shields.  Can you explain that to me?

Semantics. You call it guerilla warfare I call it hiding behind civilians. My answer is at least in English.

quote:

quote:

As to the clinics and hospitals it is quite well known that Hamas has used such buildings to house their personel. Often the store front clinic is the front for a bomb factory. That way if Israel attacks or the bomb factory blows up due to human error Hamas can blame the IDF for attacking a "clinic."


"Quite well known", by whom?  Provide links.

59 medical facilities?  Is there any proof or even any claim by the Israeli forces that Hamas were hiding in ALL of them?  Human error??  59 facilities??  With IDF's advanced targeting technology?

It's just past the point of reasonable doubt, really.

Did you watch in one of the clips where clearly marked medical personel were fired upon?

I saw video of medical personel in a combat zone. I saw nothing indicative that they were intentional targets. The fact that they weren't killed seems telling considering they were out in the open when the shooting started. Beyond that I saw claims without presented evidence.

As to Hamas using clinics and ambulances for other purposes:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003786.php
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hamas-tried-to-hijack-ambulances-during-gaza-war/2009/01/25/1232818246374.html
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42747
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11mideast.html?ref=middleeast

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