RE: Beyond Consent ?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Beyond Consent ?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Submissive >> RE: Beyond Consent ?

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 12:44:55 AM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Whats your interpretation of consent?

You are probably referring to the difference between rape and forced sex? There is, inherently, no consent in rape, methinks, and thus nothing to interpret.

(in reply to JustStephen)

Profile

Post #: 41

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 5:44:36 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello heartfelt
The thing about relationships, is that many people view them as only something you can agree to. I disagree on that. I am not getting into relationships between parents and children, because I don't want another mod warning.

But regardless of genders, age or race - people have relationships. Not one of these relationships do we have any choice over, not even has adults. I have a relationship with people here on CM. I have a relationship with my parents. I have a relationship with the guy that serves me at the post office. We do, however have a say on the actions within a relationship. The relationship itself is there, regardless of whether you want one or not.

To deny that our (generic)actions and the consent we(generic) allegedly give does not affect others and yet still insist that consent should play a major part of the 'lifestyle' or'community' or life in general, seems just bizarre to me.

the.dark.

i am going to have to disagree with the statement that we don't agree to be in a relationship or not, i can choose to use a different grocer or shop at a different store if the people in the most convenient store or grocery are rude and disagreeable. It might be inconvenient too me to do so, but if dealing with the people in those situations is unpleasant enough to overcome my love of convenience, i can and do choose to go elsewhere. So i am not forced to be in relationships with people i do not want to be in relationship with, even if it means leaving a job, changing my life or routine to make that happen.

But the kind of relationship that i was addressing is a deep interpersonal relationship, and i am confused how you can say we don't choose those. i have an older sister, who i have a relationship with due to being born to the same parents, who doesn't like me and i don't like her, even though we are both in this "lifestyle." So even though we have both heritage and lifestyle interests in common, i do not choose to hang out with her nor would i consider her my friend. i can't make her not be my sister, but i didn't choose for her to be so.

my friends, the person who is my Dominant, the people i share who i am with, those people i choose. As i know that you know, there are superficial unimportant relationships in our lives with the people who are in the periphery (grocers, shop keepers, postmen or postwomen) that we allow to stay in our lives because it is morer convenient or expedient to do so, but that still comes down to being a choice. But especially for the deep relationships that we have, i don't understand how you can say we didn't choose to be in those relationships.

And if you could, could you explain to me what you were meaning by your last paragraph, i don't think i caught what you were trying to say there.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to RCdc)

Profile

Post #: 42

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 6:16:55 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

I'd like to take a stab at this since I love language. A relationship is simply having a reference point regarding a person or thing. The word relate comes from the Latin word for "carry back" So we have no choice in relationships, they simply exist. How we use the information that we "carry back" into our thought processes is the only choice we have. I have a relationship with people I don't even talk to such as the dillweed who tailgates me on the interstate. I hardly chose that relationship nor do I like the relationship the dillweed's car has to my rear bumper but it's not a choice, it simply is. My choice is what I do with that relationship. Do I slam on my brakes hoping to put the fear of possible injury or death into said dillweed? Do I get into a different lane? Do I choose to salute said dillweed with a single digit?

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Profile

Post #: 43

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 6:52:31 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

ah i see, thanks eyes, that makes sense. i was using a difference connotation to the word relationship.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to eyesopened)

Profile

Post #: 44

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 7:14:07 AM

cantilena

Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline

{just using fast reply here to post to the discussion in general}

OK, I've slept a bit on this... ;)

I see the sense all of this is making and on a variety of levels I agree. I continue to think, though, that redefinition of common language used to express concepts can be a tricky business. In the majority of conversations to be had relating to BDSM, the term 'consent' indicates the differentiator between those activities done with a (rational, adult, etc) partner choosing to agree to submission within the relationship vs those activities done to a person who either has not agreed to submission or is otherwise incapable of making that choice. 'Consensual Relationship' may be a sticky wicket when you peel back the layers with this level of intellectualism, but in everyday conversation, I think the term makes sense as a benchmark for common understanding.

For me, the consensuality is at play to indicate agreement to activities likely to occur in the relationship. For us, those activities have 'dos' and 'donts' involved. Other relationships may have less explicit 'donts'... which is not to say those 'donts' are non-existant... Another conversation, to be sure. The consent involved for us is the agreement for those 'do' components - for us, even in the absense of it for specific occurances... i.e. he has my permission to engage in BDSM actions within the parameters we defined for ourselves. Even when I hate the occurance as it happens. Even if some doo doo happens to hit the fan. This is where personal accountability, trust, and other language landmines might come into play. ;)

Consent. It's still a valid term in my mind. To discard it, in my opinion, may lead only to further confusion rather than to lessen it.

{edited to clarify something}

< Message edited by cantilena -- 3/27/2009 7:26:16 AM >

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Profile

Post #: 45

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 7:59:00 AM

cantilena

Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline

{fast reply again}

One other thought I had when I left here and started in on the breakfast dishes... lol...

Here's the thing. I'm saying all of this relative to interpersonal dynamics - NOT in any legal sense. It's how I interpreted the OP and the frame of reference I've used throughout all my comments in the thread.

If the OP was asking about consent in the legal sense, then my opinion is that as distasteful as explicit discussion with Maria is for fear of her topping him from below, that conversation better damn well take place. If he wants to proceed, at any rate. If there is even a shred of doubt that he'd need to fall back on her 'consent' after the fact in a legal sense... wow... then my opinion is that this question should never have been asked in the first place.

Resistance play is risky on a lot of levels. Either two people accept those risks or they don't. Regardless of esoteric descriptions we choose to use, none of this crap would hold up in a court when it comes to this sort of activity. I think we all need to realize that, or not play at all.

(in reply to cantilena)

Profile

Post #: 46

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 9:29:59 AM

HandSolo

Posts: 323
Joined: 11/22/2007
Status: offline

It's all fun and games until somebody is convicted of a violent felony.

_____________________________

I plan on leaving this world the way I came in: naked, screaming and by accident.

(in reply to cantilena)

Profile

Post #: 47

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 9:30:32 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
i am going to have to disagree with the statement that we don't agree to be in a relationship or not, i can choose to use a different grocer or shop at a different store if the people in the most convenient store or grocery are rude and disagreeable. It might be inconvenient too me to do so, but if dealing with the people in those situations is unpleasant enough to overcome my love of convenience, i can and do choose to go elsewhere. So i am not forced to be in relationships with people i do not want to be in relationship with, even if it means leaving a job, changing my life or routine to make that happen.

Relationships exist regardless if you want them or not. You walk down the street, you are having a relationship with each person you walk past. You can choose or consent to walking past them or crossing the road to avoid them, but the relationship itself exists whether you want it or not. You consent to the actions taken, not the relationship itself.

quote:

But the kind of relationship that i was addressing is a deep interpersonal relationship, and i am confused how you can say we don't choose those. i have an older sister, who i have a relationship with due to being born to the same parents, who doesn't like me and i don't like her, even though we are both in this "lifestyle." So even though we have both heritage and lifestyle interests in common, i do not choose to hang out with her nor would i consider her my friend. i can't make her not be my sister, but i didn't choose for her to be so.

my friends, the person who is my Dominant, the people i share who i am with, those people i choose. As i know that you know, there are superficial unimportant relationships in our lives with the people who are in the periphery (grocers, shop keepers, postmen or postwomen) that we allow to stay in our lives because it is morer convenient or expedient to do so, but that still comes down to being a choice. But especially for the deep relationships that we have, i don't understand how you can say we didn't choose to be in those relationships.

And if you could, could you explain to me what you were meaning by your last paragraph, i don't think i caught what you were trying to say there.

heartfelt

I believe eyes explained it much easier than I.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Profile

Post #: 48

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 9:39:22 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantilena
Consent. It's still a valid term in my mind. To discard it, in my opinion, may lead only to further confusion rather than to lessen it.

The thing for me is that by definition, legal or not, rape cannot be 'consensual'. It blurs lines and places people in danger. I simply believe that using the thin veil of 'consent' as an acceptable buzz word puts people at risk. Resistance play, however, ROCKs as a clear definition. It says what it is on the can. Unfortuantely, there are many people who don't think like you in your last sentance.

quote:

Regardless of esoteric descriptions we choose to use, none of this crap would hold up in a court when it comes to this sort of activity. I think we all need to realize that, or not play at all.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to cantilena)

Profile

Post #: 49

RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/27/2009 9:41:26 AM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

Well, I'm all in favour of a 'safe word', especially in instances such as this. After all, it's a rape scene, so there is probably going to be a lot of 'no', 'help', 'stop', etc. That won't really help to know when it's gone from a scene to actual rape, as much as it would blurting out 'applesauce!', and knowing that actually means to stop.

Just be careful tossing her onto the concrete floor in an abandoned building, nails and such, and concrete also isn't particularly soft on the braincase.

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Profile

Post #: 50