RE: Reality or fantasy? (Full Version)

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catize -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 7:18:51 AM)

quote:

  To argue that someone is not climbing a mountain when they are instead, walking on a beach, is much less personal than telling someone what they are, is not what they say. 


Excellent point, LaTigresse!  The way we are currently feeling about ourselves or something in our lives can have an impact on how we react to someone else’s opinions of an issue.  If we are secure and sure of something then we tend to not get all fussed about what others say. 



pinkpolkadots -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 9:16:22 AM)

Fantasy is assuming Y/you both know exactly what "this" means without examination.
Reality is that it is a "game" of trust with very real consequences if people are let down.



InTonguesslut -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 10:59:02 AM)

quote:

On the other hand,  if someone walks across a sandy beach claiming that he's climbing a mountain, I'm going to seriously doubt that he's actually climbing a mountain. 


Lol. Also this is the internet and we don't have 'proof' per se of what anyone says, we only have their word. You could 99% say i have just sat here and typed this post, but there is always that 1% chance i got someone else or let someone else do it.
 



neewollah -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 11:00:54 AM)

I would say it's all a fantasy with the exemption of my reality.



Aynne88 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 11:31:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

There we go again... look, if you think it's your biological destiny to submit sexually then have at it. If you have that 'primal' need, go for it. But don't presume to speak for the rest of humanity: your experience isn't universal... and need I say it? This isn't Gor.

"Il est très doux de scandaliser. Il existe là un petit triomphe pour l'orgueil qui n'est nullement à dédaigner." (DAF)


Who ever said I was Gorean? I'm not. But I'm not sticking my head in the sand about the fact that the human race is part of the animal kingdom and that people have primal instincts. People may choose to not be tied by their primal origins and have risen to heights of civilzation. And it is totally up to others to choose either to rise above the primitive human or to explore it. I do not attempt to "speak for humanity" in their choices. I have said only that there are many types of slavery and that it can be fantasy or it can be real depending on how it is done. Just as love can be real or fake. Anything can be faked. What I object to only is that you attempt to judge someone else's life, that you are not a participant of, see it from the outside, and declare that what they do is not real because you disagree with the word choice. English is a limited language. Perhaps there is not a word that completely encompasses what it is, but the closest words I can come up with is "spiritual slavery." But the point is to understand what the words refer to not to nitpick linguistics.


Maybe she assumed you were Gorean because you post things like this over there? Could be....either way I am glad you find us so amusing, amusing enough to share with the Goreans. Trust me, they make me giggle a lot too. [8|]


"laughs- Master Malkinius is right, she would have!

You may wonder why I hang out over here in the Gorean Boards so much, and well, it because I respect everyone here because they have such well thought through opinions and ideals (often vociferously debated, lol) which they stick to and live by and understand this is not a game. I get so disheartened on the other side. Right now I am making the perhaps somewhat unwise choice to be involved over there in a discussion of whether slavery is fantasy or reality (eyeroll please). I am thinking that the society that we have created pretending men and women are the same and denying biology is the fantasy. Aaarghhhh."



LaTigresse -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 1:49:46 PM)

Yes, that was not exactly an impressively mature post. Which is fine if it is being posted in a sarcastic and humorous way in a random stupidity thread. However, when wanting others to take you seriously, give your side of a debate merit, it is quite self defeating at best.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 4:01:33 PM)

quote:

Maybe she assumed you were Gorean because you post things like this over there? Could be....either way I am glad you find us so amusing,


As a matter of fact Aynne, you misinterpreted what I wrote. I like going over there to talk to people because I find a lot of people who understand slavery in the same way as me with whom I can communicate. Whereas, on CM in general, not specific to this thread or any one person in particular, it is much harder to find those who live slavery in a similar way, which I find disheartening because I enjoy talking about other slave's experiences. You misunderstood my amusement. I was not laughing at this thread, but rolling my eyes at myself for deciding to be involved in the discussion of whether slavery is real or fantasy since it was bound to become a heated debate due to the nature of the topic... something I usually try to stay out of, but since the topic interested me I thought I would anyway. I apologize if it came out sounding differently. It is difficult to make typed words come out the way they would in speech or in person.



marie2 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 4:33:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


To argue that someone is not climbing a mountain when they are instead, walking on a beach, is much less personal than telling someone what they are, is not what they say.



hey, I got copy rights on that example, ya know.




marie2 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 4:36:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

  To argue that someone is not climbing a mountain when they are instead, walking on a beach, is much less personal than telling someone what they are, is not what they say. 


Excellent point, LaTigresse!  The way we are currently feeling about ourselves or something in our lives can have an impact on how we react to someone else’s opinions of an issue.  If we are secure and sure of something then we tend to not get all fussed about what others say. 


And then sometimes people just enjoy engaging in discourse. 



marie2 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 4:52:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

quote:

On the other hand,  if someone walks across a sandy beach claiming that he's climbing a mountain, I'm going to seriously doubt that he's actually climbing a mountain. 


Lol. Also this is the internet and we don't have 'proof' per se of what anyone says, we only have their word. You could 99% say i have just sat here and typed this post, but there is always that 1% chance i got someone else or let someone else do it.
 


I was out all day and just had a chance to catch up reading here.   I actually saw this thread as a little bit different approach to a fairly common topic. 
To me it was musings of a somewhat philosphical nature; nothing more, nothing less, no attempt to "prove" anything, demand proof of anything,  or discredit or invalidate anyone. 

Perhaps my lack of emotional investment in this discussion rendered me a bit ignorant about what's going on under the surface.  A lot of people seem to have some kind of passive aggressive statement to make without actually owning it or being direct.  I can't tell who it's about or who it's directed at, only that I've been quoted and used as the platform for these supposed convictions.   

I'm done with this one. 



Aynne88 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 6:19:05 PM)

I did not interpret nor misinterpret it anna, I posted it in it's entirety, I know it is a common discussion over there about the validity and "realness" of the Gorean ways, but honestly I see a lot of "girl bows, smiles sweetly, brings more mead, sucks cock" etc. while disparaging the "bdsm" people as fake and game players? Oh that is some rich irony indeed. Meanwhile, the slave thread over there is a bitch fest extraordinaire, over absolute nonsense.  I think my irritation with this is how I see the constant superiority of people that believe in a philos on some pulp fiction poorly written mysogynistic archaic writing by a really poor author. It pisses me off. Not not all of them, just for clarification.   


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

quote:

Maybe she assumed you were Gorean because you post things like this over there? Could be....either way I am glad you find us so amusing,


As a matter of fact Aynne, you misinterpreted what I wrote. I like going over there to talk to people because I find a lot of people who understand slavery in the same way as me with whom I can communicate. Whereas, on CM in general, not specific to this thread or any one person in particular, it is much harder to find those who live slavery in a similar way, which I find disheartening because I enjoy talking about other slave's experiences. You misunderstood my amusement. I was not laughing at this thread, but rolling my eyes at myself for deciding to be involved in the discussion of whether slavery is real or fantasy since it was bound to become a heated debate due to the nature of the topic... something I usually try to stay out of, but since the topic interested me I thought I would anyway. I apologize if it came out sounding differently. It is difficult to make typed words come out the way they would in speech or in person.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 6:41:53 PM)

quote:

I did not interpret nor misinterpret it anna, I posted it in it's entirety, I know it is a common discussion over there about the validity and "realness" of the Gorean ways, but honestly I see a lot of "girl bows, smiles sweetly, brings more mead, sucks cock" etc. while disparaging the "bdsm" people as fake and game players? Oh that is some rich irony indeed. Meanwhile, the slave thread over there is a bitch fest extraordinaire, over absolute nonsense. I think my irritation with this is how I see the constant superiority of people that believe in a philos on some pulp fiction poorly written mysogynistic archaic writing by a really poor author. It pisses me off. Not not all of them, just for clarification.


Aynne, the fact that you chose to post it here implies that you certainly interpreted it as somehow pertinent to the discussion here. And the statement "I am glad you find us so amusing" is your interpretation.

What you point out about "girl smiles serves mead..." etc, I totally agree with you is online nonsense and not something which I have seen perpetuated by the goreans who live the life offline. There are Gorean online sites apparently where this is done, and I would agree with you that it is role play. However, if you'd like to discuss this with me further, I invite you to email me directly, as this is rather off topic and I do not wish to derail the thread further.

Regards,
anna



cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 7:23:06 PM)

Musings
quote:

To argue that someone is not climbing a mountain when they are instead, walking on a beach, is much less personal than telling someone what they are, is not what they say. 


It is doubtful I would agree with someone who told me they just climbed a mountain, if I had just seen them walk across a beach, however, if I had just watched them dragging their over-stuffed cooler over the sand, in a manner of digging their toes and hand(s) in, to pull/push themselves along, and they exclaimed upon arrival, “Did you just see me climb that mountain?!?”; I could easily agree, “Yeah, Dawg, nice climb!”

Would it be enough to others that the “mountain” was symbolic to an “up hill battle”, or does it have to literally be a mountain?

Kim



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/4/2009 8:03:09 PM)

Yeah I can tell you have an axe to grind. Your statements are very second wavish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
It pisses me off.



InTonguesslut -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/5/2009 3:43:50 PM)

quote:

To me it was musings of a somewhat philosphical nature; nothing more, nothing less, no attempt to "prove" anything, demand proof of anything,  or discredit or invalidate anyone. 

Thats all this thread was ever meant to be. However reality dictates that it would move off course into other things as most threads do.
 
quote:

Perhaps my lack of emotional investment in this discussion rendered me a bit ignorant about what's going on under the surface.  A lot of people seem to have some kind of passive aggressive statement to make without actually owning it or being direct.  I can't tell who it's about or who it's directed at, only that I've been quoted and used as the platform for these supposed convictions.   

I'm done with this one


I'm not sure whether there is some kind of dig at me in this but i can ensure you i am not personally trying to prove anything. I'm sorry if you feel that this thread has become personal to you in any way.



kidwithknife -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/6/2009 4:04:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis
As a matter of fact Aynne, you misinterpreted what I wrote. I like going over there to talk to people because I find a lot of people who understand slavery in the same way as me with whom I can communicate.
Oh, for goodness' sake Anna.

That's really not hard to interpret.  The implication is that at least some people who disagree with you are playing a game and its dismissive of those who disagree with you, especially your biological determinism.   I can break it down line by line if you really need me to, but I honestly don't think that's necessary.

Now I don't care about any of that.  I'm reguarly both more obnoxious and dismissive then you are.  But the only way I could believe that isn't the case is if I accept that you're either too inarticulate or too unintelligent to understand the implication of your words.  And I don't believe either of those things.

Seriously, I like you and think your contribution to this debate has been very useful.  But please just own your damn words.

I do agree that general debates on the worth of Goreanism are rather off-topic however.



Aynne88 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/6/2009 9:46:40 AM)

Orion you impress me with your feminist terminology, but if you are going to use it, you need to know that 2nd wave feminism came about while I was in the womb. Although I do admire their take no prisoners attitude, I identify more with power feminism as opposed to that whole victim bullshit. 

Yes, when I see on the Gor threads repeated references to BDSM people being nothing more than bedroom kinksters while you Goreans epitomize nobility, honor and the paragon of virtue, it makes angry. I am owned by a man that is the most decent honorable strong moral and ethical person I have ever had the privilege of knowing and believe me his authority over me extends far outside of the bedroom. We are in a loving devoted complete power exchange relationsip. I don't like the attitude of some not all Orion *some* Goreans and their blatant superior attitude regarding BDSM relationships. Especially when some of those middle aged slaves in the slaves threads over there carry on like prepubescent  brats, arguing non stop about who is the slaviest and who is the most devoted and all the while sniping at each other?  Then they come here and criticize us? Sure, come on over, just expect the same treatment we get when we dare to tread on your forums.  


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Yeah I can tell you have an axe to grind. Your statements are very second wavish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
It pisses me off.




AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/6/2009 9:51:01 AM)

Hi kidwithknife,

Thanks for your comments I do appreciate the fact that you liked some of the thoughts I posted :)

I know you think I was writing dismissively, but I really wasn't! I just don't think it's possible to find an answer to the reality/fantasy question... it's kind of futile, and as others pointed out in the end, it doesn't matter what others think. I think that if someone is living by certain ideals- religion, slavery, whatever- then it's just not really my place to question whether what they do is real. I might question the ideals, but not that they live by it.

I think too, rereading my infamous biology post... that it came out sounding like I was saying all females are destined to serve, which also is not what I meant. I meant that biologically male dominance and female submission is a part of our species, and some choose to embrace that, some choose to reverse that, and some (vanilla for example) don't at all. What I meant is that it is a real primal drive and, therefore, that is not fantasy... that need to be dominant or submissive. For me, it is female submission that draws me. I do admit that I think Male dom/ fem sub is what is natural to our species. But I also know that many people do not follow that path... perhaps it is the very thrill of the reversal of roles that is the draw? Or perhaps they are just wired differently than most. Not being domme, I can't say what it is- I'm just wondering out loud at this point.

Thanks for not thinking me unintelligent or inarticulate:) Unfortunately, my problem is that I'm very shy, and so I tend to say less than I am thinking. I know what I mean, and when I read it, it makes sense to me. Then someone perceives it totally differently, and I realize I didn't say enough to be clear. I do it all the time. I'm better in writing than is speech though. But I'm one of those people that never had a hard time staying UNDER the page limit on papers at school, LOL.

Anyway, I hope I wrote enough this time to be somewhat clearer, lol (seems long enough at any rate ;) )

Well wishes,

anna



toonbat -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/12/2009 4:00:51 PM)

I suppose it can feel very real when you're in the moment. Personally, I prefer to treat bdsm always as a game, not to diminish its importance to me, but because I'm not a big fan of 'seriousness'. I certainly don't grant reality much importance as a rule anyway.



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