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Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/28/2006 6:29:15 AM

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I received this article yesterday. Am not sure what to think about it or how accurate it is legally. However, if it's based on fact, then it gives a lot of food for thought. Generally it brings up good points....is an emblem that is ancient and common something that can be copyrighted, and does Quagmyr own that copyright?

The BDSM Emblem

RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/28/2006 10:09:27 AM

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I can't speak on who has the copyright, but I can affirm that it is entirely possible for whomever to have the copyright to a specific version/style of an otherwise common/ancient image.

The triskele itself is ancient and has been reproduced in many variations. No one can copyright triskeles in general. However, a specific design based on a triskele pattern (a specific color, shape, style, etc) that someone makes is copyrighted as soon as it is drawn, whether or not it is registered legally.

A parallel example:

Stars have been drawn for no one knows how long and no one can claim a copyright on them. But a person can draw a particular star design (again, with it's own specific color, shape, style, etc) and that can be kept and is their copyrighted image. Same with wings, images of human bodies, font or script images, everything. No one can copyright the alphabet, but they can copyright the fontstyle they drew it in.

(in reply to peppermint379)

RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/28/2006 11:53:14 AM

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This is just another example of someone wanting free money.

Happens all the time to me.

I call those people "friends".

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/28/2006 12:54:20 PM

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You can't copyright a symbol. At most you could copyright your particular rendition of a symbol, which means it would be illegal for someone to simply copy your drawing, and that's by default true, but it doesn't mean other people can't draw the symbol themselves.

A trademark claim might be more troublesome here, but ultimately would not be likely to get him much.

In the end, he's just bluffing and the sad thing is he's probably bluffed himself quite a bit of money. As long as it keeps working, he'll probably keep doing it.

That triskelion, btw, is an ancient symbol of, among other things, okinawan karate. Not sure who thought it would make a good symbol of BDSM, or what the heck was going through their mind... but that's neither here nor there.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/28/2006 4:46:52 PM

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evidently that name doesnot own shit.
and
it is NOT the ONLY lifestyle emblem!

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/28/2006 5:06:07 PM

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quote:

Not sure who thought it would make a good symbol of BDSM

Quagmyr

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/29/2006 7:28:11 AM

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Apparently there are a few images that this individual holds a claim to & yes they are of a specific color, shape & style. I believe is all explained on his webpage.

Basically what this guy set out to do was to make a specific symbol that would be recognized AS THE BDSM SYMBOL so that others would recognize others...

LOL, I have to laugh because on a whole we can't agree on universally recognized & agreed upon terminology, protocols or facts/myths about modalities, history or ANYTHING ELSE. Who got together & appointed this guy to be the Grand-Designer of the Emblem?

Eh, just one more thing tossed in the quagmire of this big pond we all play in.

Regardless of his intension's, good or bad, one triskele could easily be confused as another. I have met many people over the years wearing so many variations of this symbol. I have never looked for any secret handshake when approaching another. I simply engage in conversation & trust my instincts. I have asked several people if they wore this as a sign of their involvement in this particular way of life. Some have said, some have said no.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/29/2006 8:51:02 AM

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Cajun Rose, the one who wrote this article, is a very honest and trustworthy person. She has spent a while gathering information for this article.

I also approached Quagmyr asking for copyright 'proof' and never received a reply even after repeated requests for information. I also did intensive searches at the US Patent and Copyright website using various names and terms and never found any reference to this copyright.

If someone tells you they own the registered copyright to something then do you research and find out if it is true.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/29/2006 5:30:01 PM

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I will say one thing. Quagmyr did design the emblem He claims and did so in order for others of like minds to know one another in a time when the US was still in the CLOSET so to speak. He dident associate any site to His that discribes and explains His Emblem and I do not see anything wrong with a artist being payed for their works. What I do see is a very sly slave who tempts to advertize using negitive ploys to gain attention or sinsationalizum so to speak. I took an interest into this information and content and was fully listening to the words written and alltho they started to sould more like a slave scorned was given the benifit of the doubt till I got to the bottom where the slave will benifit by those who visit the page and enter her store monitarly. Thats where My thoughts turned. What makes her way any more vulgar a use of a symbol thats an accepted sign of Our Lifestyle then Quagmyrs? I found that neither hold a copywrite to the BDSM Symbol for its use but both tempt to profit off of its use. A thorn by anyother name is still a thorn.

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< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 1/29/2006 5:38:17 PM >

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/29/2006 6:05:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

I found that neither hold a copywrite to the BDSM Symbol for its use but both tempt to profit off of its use. A thorn by anyother name is still a thorn.

Quagmyr wants to profit off others who use the symbol.

Cajun Rose profits of the direct use of a non-copywritten image.

Quarmyr has either not responded to the requests of many people (including myself) to produce proof of copyright or he has circumvented the requests.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/29/2006 10:35:44 PM

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The only point of concern that I see with asking for proof is that it is entirely possible to not have any but still be the copyright holder, as a copyright applies regardless of whether a person ever registers it. Registering is purely an optional backup measure.

If he is in fact the creator of this specific image and didn't bother to register his copyright (as is the case with most people and their creations), the only "proof" that he may have is the first chat logs or whatever from when he first announced/claimed it... and few people keep chat logs that long, especially in during the years it's claimed he created it.

Unless someone else steps forward with proof of copyright for this exact design that is verifiably dated prior to his first claiming it, there is no way of knowing if he is copyright holder or not.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/30/2006 5:11:52 AM

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Just some food for thought here .....

Say someone contacts Gilbert Baker and demands proof that he holds the copyright on the rainbow-flag? He cant produce such copyright. Does this mean that Gilbert Baker didn't actually invent the rainbow flag? After all, rainbows were around for a long long time before Gilbert Baker was even born.

Or what if someone asked David Stein for his copyright paperwork on the phrase "safe sane consensual" and he doesn't provide anything from the US copyright office? Does this make him some scam artist or trickster who is just bullshiting in his claim that he invented the phrase? After all, all three words were in common use in the English language way before he claims to have invented them.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/30/2006 5:26:50 AM

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David Stein has also repeatedly stated that he was not the only writer involved with the original piece that those three words were extracted from. He has also stated that those same three words were taken out of context.

http://sensuoussadie.com/interviews/davidsteininterview.htm

excerpt:

quote:

David Stein: The issue of my personal connection with the phrase is trivial compared with the issue of how the phrase has been abused and perverted in the years since it was coined. But i have to share some of the responsibility for that, since it wasn’t until a couple of years ago that i realized what a monster we had created. The only reason i ever tell anyone that i was the author is so i’ll have some authority when i explain what we meant by it back then — and what we didn’t mean by it.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 1/30/2006 5:32:00 AM >

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/30/2006 5:40:44 AM

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a side note:

How about those that attempt to lay claim to certain scene names?

I have often been contacted by people who thought I was a pro-domme that they knew from somewhere. (I know where but it is not relevant to post that info.) I was told by one individual that I was working with to create a website for educational purposes that I would have to refer to myself by another name simply because she had a copyright on her name. They were spelled completely different & I am sure I could pull up plenty of archived pieces that show my use of this particular spelling that predates my usage of it online.

If you are buying into his claim on this symbol... don't buy it. There are many sources online to find other symbols that are very similar. As I had stated in a previous post... any triskele symbol can be easily mistaken for another.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/30/2006 7:06:41 AM

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Whats the difference David Stein and Quagmyr then?

Both claim to be the originator of a "logo" that is now in common use by the BDSM community at large. Both of them use elements in their logo that existed for a long long time before they came up with it. Both of them have failed to present any evidence of copyright paperwork filed with the US copyright office saying they invented it. Both claim that the way it is commonly used by others is ~wrong~.

When David Stien talks, everyone accept the fact that he invented what he invented. But when Quagmyr talks, everyone assumes that he didn't invent what he invented and that he is just a trickster and a fraud trying to claim credit for something he didn't do.

Yeah, I will grant the fact that Quagmyr is acting like a total prick about this. But the fact remains that he *IS* the one who came up with using the tri-swirl thing as a representation of BDSM.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 1/30/2006 8:21:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

a side note:

How about those that attempt to lay claim to certain scene names?

I have often been contacted by people who thought I was a pro-domme that they knew from somewhere. (I know where but it is not relevant to post that info.) I was told by one individual that I was working with to create a website for educational purposes that I would have to refer to myself by another name simply because she had a copyright on her name. They were spelled completely different & I am sure I could pull up plenty of archived pieces that show my use of this particular spelling that predates my usage of it online.

If you are buying into his claim on this symbol... don't buy it. There are many sources online to find other symbols that are very similar. As I had stated in a previous post... any triskele symbol can be easily mistaken for another.

Regarding names vs. intellectual property: copyright law does not apply to the former, names (given or assumed by a person) cannot be owned by copyright. Other legal issues apply at times, but not copyright. Entirely different issue.

If he is the creator of the image he claims, this very particular triskele based design, then he is completely within his legal right as copyright holder to control the use and application of the image and if/how money is made from it. It does not matter if there are 3 million other designs in the world of triskeles and triskele-based, anyone using that copyrighted version -whether image or 3d rendering of it (copyright still applies when that image is transfered to another medium maintaining its defining attributes/application)- is by law required to gain permission of the copyright holder.

As we've nothing to show he is not copyright holder of this image, regardless of how well he's behaving about it he is 100% correct to control if, when and how it is reproduced and to require any form of compensation that is legal for its use.

Two paintings of a woman can easily be mistaken for one another, but copying a specific one without the creator's permission is still a copyright violation and -especially if making money from the copyright violation- stealing from the creator.

He may be acting like an ass, but if he really was the one to draw this particular triskele design and apply the idea to being a bdsm symbol, he is in the right on this issue.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 2/6/2006 6:58:13 PM

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Maybe I'm naive to the buisiness world, but it seems childish to me to be squabbling over whose idea it was. Like it says on his site, "the symbol was made to be worn". Or something to that effect. Why are we fighting over who it belongs to? Apperently it is the community's as a whole to wear and show off.

(in reply to RumpusParable)

RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 6/30/2006 1:24:30 PM

AngelDrknessLght

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Greetings from shani*!

The evening before last, my stats came in from my website, with a reference to this particular forum on Collarme. Specifically the discussion of the article " (The) Myth of the BDSM Symbol and the Fleecing of Our Community written by cajunrose of A True Rose.

I was curious of course and followed the link that was listed on my stats. I read with great interest everyone's input in this forum of the aforementioned article from January of 2006.

I have reread the actual emails between Quagmyr and cajunrose. Some folks have expressed quite strongly that Quagmyr owns copyright to the BDSM symbol. He does not; he has admitted it.

I would also like to interject for a moment, please, that cajunrose was called a "scorned slave". IMNSHO I found that rather interesting. In reading the entire section of the emails, not once was cajunrose disrespectful to Quagmyr or acting that of a "scorned slave".

The reason for my posting? To share the actual clear and concise facts in regards to the BDSM symbol. Did you know it took cajunrose eighteen months to thoroughly research this matter before presenting it to our Community? Hopefully it will help clear up anymore unanswered questions that people may still have in their minds. *smile* If not, cajunrose's addy has been noted at the bottom of this email.

Ah yes, just as an FYI, A True Rose has been around since 1998 and it sells absolutely NOTHING. Ergo cajunrose was and has never been in business against Quaqmyre period.

On that note, please grab a cup of coffee, tea or whatever your favorite drink of choice is. *smile* This is a rather long response.

I've quoted quite a few unedited, spelling and all (can we say verbatim?) emails between cajunrose and Quagmyre. As you will note, I have snipped alot of the emails to get to the "meat" of the matter. - shani*

Here we go:

<pasting of the entire article deleted>

To read the entire article of "The Myth of the BDSM Community and the Fleecing of Our Community" which includes the unedited email exchange between Quag and cajunrose, please visit:

http://www.atruerose.com/rose/bdsmsymbol/myth.htm

[Mod Note: Please don't paste large articles from other sites here. Just post a link to the material in question]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 6/30/2006 5:51:39 PM >

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 6/30/2006 3:46:25 PM

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Companies copyright the genes of plants and animals...

But who cares, it is a silly thing to fight over.

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RE: Myth or Fact, BDSM emblem - 6/30/2006 3:55:06 PM

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If you send some guy money or goods because he claims to have invented something, that's your problem.

However, if the guy can't prove to you that he invented it and such, he prolly will have a hard time doing so in court.

Yours,

benji

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