Choice and submission

Choice and submission (Full Version)

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Anguis -> Choice and submission (4/6/2009 11:07:27 PM)
Over the years I've often wondered if anyone exists that matches my passions, who might be able to see submission the way I do. To me submission is about strength, not weakness, the weak submit to avoid choice, the strong use choice to reach for their desires. I believe that anyone with enough power can force compliance, but until one chooses to submit, as a gift, no amount of force will bring true passion. I'd like to hear your thoughts...

hermione83 -> RE: Choice and submission (4/6/2009 11:13:43 PM)
I think most of the people here agree with you. Personally, I don't.. I think being forced, manipulated, coerced, influenced, seduced, confused into being taken in hand by someone is more passionate and intense than anything. I need it, perhaps it is weak, but trust me, the codependent relationship is anything but lacking in passion. It takes so much it almost sucks you dry, but it never will because of the nature of the needs of the parties involved. Grand fun and adventures there. Free will and choice is overrated. I think people should stop waiting until they've had to live their lives alone, and go throw someone in a trunk and just bring 'em home. ;)

Anguis -> RE: Choice and submission (4/6/2009 11:22:47 PM)
I understand what you're saying and agree, but my point is that the initial choice, to submit, or not is one that cannot be forced. Once that choice is made all other choices follow. Yes, there may be force used at that point, but it is with both knowing that it's within the "contract."

hermione83 -> RE: Choice and submission (4/6/2009 11:35:25 PM)
Yeah, I still disagree ;). I think the best part of D/s is the type of guy that will be entirely responsible for our being together. He decides and makes it very known that he has chosen me and I am going to be his. That's the only way I feel peaceful enough about it to get over my doubts and let me be his. I can have more faith in him than in me for sure. So if he thinks it's good, and I think he's good.. I'll think we're good, because he does.. ya know?

Anguis -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 12:53:04 AM)
"So if he thinks it's good, and I think he's good.." To me, that is the point. That is where the submission begins, with that choice, whatever limits or choices get made after that build on that first choice.

colouredin -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 1:45:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 Yeah, I still disagree ;). I think the best part of D/s is the type of guy that will be entirely responsible for our being together. He decides and makes it very known that he has chosen me and I am going to be his. That's the only way I feel peaceful enough about it to get over my doubts and let me be his. I can have more faith in him than in me for sure. So if he thinks it's good, and I think he's good.. I'll think we're good, because he does.. ya know? I have never really seen this happen, a man deciding that you will be his without you wanting to be? Because see whether you want to see it or not when you are in a relationship you are making a choice, you are deciding you want someone to take more control thats fine but its still a choice. I think generally strength is a good characteristic in people, strength of will and belief and all that is admirable. Its just what strength means that will cause the problems, one persons strength is anothers denial. We simply have to do what makes you happy. Sometimes I love the illusion of weakness created by submission, it can be empowering., I dont think we should refer to others as being weak simply for enjoying that feeling. Its too subjective

simpleplan2 -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 2:03:08 AM)
I'm not quite sure how that would work either. It sounds all cavemanish and barbaric...but what if you just plain don't like the guy? You gotta submit anyway because HE'S "taken" you? Um, can you spell kidnapped? Like colouredin said, if you are in a relationship, you've already made a choice and that's fine. After that, structure it anyway the two (or more) of you want.

YoungBlondeSlave -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 2:41:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 I think most of the people here agree with you. Personally, I don't.. I think being forced, manipulated, coerced, influenced, seduced, confused into being taken in hand by someone is more passionate and intense than anything. I need it, perhaps it is weak, but trust me, the codependent relationship is anything but lacking in passion. It takes so much it almost sucks you dry, but it never will because of the nature of the needs of the parties involved. Grand fun and adventures there. Free will and choice is overrated. I think people should stop waiting until they've had to live their lives alone, and go throw someone in a trunk and just bring 'em home. ;) i think that wanting this is just crazy, if you have to be "forced, manipulated, coerced...confused" to be with someone then that means that you don't want to be with them. i don't think passionate would be be the word i would use. It sounds more like horrifying. Unless of course through this you're hoping to develop some sort of Stockholm Syndrome, i guess it could happen. It sounds more than slightly idealistic and fantastical thinking that "grand fun and adventures" will follow. i've never read any of those bodice-ripper romance novels but this sounds like a storyline that many of them would have. Like some Beauty and the Beast delusion. i mean, best of luck if you do find that but it sounds so dangerous as to really not be worth it. What if this person who does force and manipulate you to submit to him then decides you're not a good enough sub and then decides he's just going to beat you into submission within an inch of your life? What would you call that?

InTonguesslave -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 2:53:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hermione83 Yeah, I still disagree ;). I think the best part of D/s is the type of guy that will be entirely responsible for our being together. He decides and makes it very known that he has chosen me and I am going to be his. That's the only way I feel peaceful enough about it to get over my doubts and let me be his. I can have more faith in him than in me for sure. So if he thinks it's good, and I think he's good.. I'll think we're good, because he does.. ya know? i can understand that. though i made the decision for myself in the end and after a couple of wobbles and a fair amount of hesitation too - but it was him who, (after long chats and ensuring that i did want the relationship, i just wasnt sure i could be a slave) that pushed me and reassured me that he wanted me and the relationship that kept me more or less on his page and focused. if he hadnt i wouldnt be with him now. sometimes strength gets in the way - it pulls you back into youre self-sufficient self and resists the process of submission to begin with. it takes a strong, determined person to push you when you get stuck and in doing so it gives reassurance because when you wobbled they were strong. i think most of us agree that subs/slaves are strong individuals on the whole, but a strong person needs to know that their partner is as strong or stronger - for some, i guess that gives them the confidence to continue.

Anguis -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 2:56:05 AM)
I'm seeing some very good points here. I like the reference to Stockholm Syndrome, it's a very well known response to an overwhelming situation and is predictable. The thing that has always been important to me in the matter of choice and submission is that if the choice is made without thought, without acknowledging the risks and accepting the consequences the sub becomes less than human in some way. To me submission isn't about degrading someone, it's about the willing surrender and willing surrender requires informed choice.

colouredin -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 2:56:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave i think most of us agree that subs/slaves are strong individuals on the whole, but a strong person needs to know that their partner is as strong or stronger - for some, i guess that gives them the confidence to continue. I dont think an oriantation makes someone strong, I think there are many subs I have met on here and real life with a wonderful strength of character but I have also met those flailing around without a clue and anything in between just like any group of human beings. I dont think that submission is always psychologically healthy. Thats probably not a popular statement

YoungBlondeSlave -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 3:26:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anguis I'm seeing some very good points here. I like the reference to Stockholm Syndrome, it's a very well known response to an overwhelming situation and is predictable. The thing that has always been important to me in the matter of choice and submission is that if the choice is made without thought, without acknowledging the risks and accepting the consequences the sub becomes less than human in some way. To me submission isn't about degrading someone, it's about the willing surrender and willing surrender requires informed choice. Anguis: i agree, submission isn't about degrading anyone. i also think that it shouldn't be something that, in hermoine's explanation downright frightful (at least, to me). i'm concerned that she will find herself in awful situation that she can't get herself out of (though, in her own words wants to be thrown in the trunk of a car and brought home). i've been in a situation like that, one that i almost committed suicide over. Stupid me, a few years ago moved across the country to be with a "Dom" that i hadn't met yet and promised me this wonderful life that i would have as his slave. Ironically enough, i met him on here. He did force me to be his slave when i was there, and he basically kept me cooped up with nothing to do but coddle to his laziness and wipe his ass (literally). Luckily, i was able to escape with the help of two friends who he actually introduced me to because he wanted a poly household, which i guess sort of backfired on him. He kept me isolated from my friends and family and wasn't allowed to continue with my nursing classes because that took time away from serving him however, i was allowed to work, until i got fired for him sitting in the parking lot eight hours a day waiting for me to get off work. i had never felt so alone, so helpless and so worthless. i now know that i am worth finding someone who i think is deserving of my submission. Because, as dumb and cliché as it sounds submission is a gift and damn it, i should be able to choose who receives it.

eyesopened -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 4:18:06 AM)
I'm going to admit something that I hope doesn't make me sound like a total nut case but a few years ago when I found myself in a place mentally and spiritual where I deeply desired surrender, I "received" a spiritual message that said, "Be careful not to choose a Master who is too heavy for you to carry because at times you *will* carry Him." This spoke to me as needing strength in a relationship, to understand that in order to serve completely I would at times need to be the strong one, just not the Dominant one. This might not have any meaning to anyone but me but I can say it change my outlook, my attitude, and my choices.

cpK69 -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 5:14:19 AM)
I feel the important aspect to keep in mind is, am I honest with myself about what I am doing, and is the ‘why’ I am doing it, productive to my goal. Part of why I submit is due to weaknesses; areas I lack in. Otherwise, there would be no purpose, since my whole sense of ‘happiness’ pivots on whether or not I feel I am being productive. Being able to admit to my weaknesses is strength. Probably the reason I cannot see my submission as a gift, anymore. Passion is just there, sort of like cancer, find the right trigger, and it can spread like wildfire. Understanding one’s triggers, if willful prevention of unintended fires. Side note: I see nothing wrong with dancing within the fire, if you are a spark, however, if you are a butterfly (with a key stuffed down your throat, so that it emerges from your ass); might not be such a ‘good’ idea. Kim

RCdc -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 5:23:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I dont think an oriantation makes someone strong, I think there are many subs I have met on here and real life with a wonderful strength of character but I have also met those flailing around without a clue and anything in between just like any group of human beings. I dont think that submission is always psychologically healthy. Thats probably not a popular statement Yeah, but it's true. the.dark.

DesFIP -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 5:45:24 AM)
When people fantasize about 'forced' submission, they aren't envisioning some guy 30 years older than them who weighs 400 lbs and hasn't showered in a month. Beyond that, I hope he doesn't demand I be strong all the time, because that's as bad as being weak all the time. I'm a fully actualized human being, meaning I have moments of strength and moments of weakness. I want to be accepted and loved for all of it, for my flaws, not despite them. There's more than a touch of codepency in my relationship, some D/lg or pet dynamic as well, and we're still passionate. He worries sometimes that we've gotten into a rut, I don't see that. I see us still enjoying the same things just as much. Bring out the rope and I'm a happy camper.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 5:47:24 AM)
I definitely think it takes strength to submit deeply. Master occasionally will take someone on who wishes to be trained and some time ago there was one who wanted to train, but she was very weak emotionally and did not have the strength to obey even simple commands. I think there can be a confusion sometimes between someone who is a dominant and someone who is a bully. The former takes strength, the latter comes from weakness. I think there is also the same confusion about submissives. There is weakness and there is submission. Both dominance and submission take the strength to commit. I don't know about choice. I think many submissives do make a conscious choice to submit to someone. I am not sure whether or not Hermione is really talking about being forced. But I do know that you can submit to someone without conscious choice. When you meet someone and you fall in love, the feelings stir in you without you saying "I'm going to choose to feel this way" and I think a dominant can inspire the same feelings of submission without someone deciding they are going to submit. True the choice exists to turn away from those feelings, but if you pass up on that choice in the beginning, the submission grows so that the choice to turn away gets harder and harder to make. When my Master took possession of me, He asked me "what do you want?" I said, "I want you to be my Master." It might sound like a choice, but to me it wasn't. It was simply an admission of the feelings that had grown in me without my really wanting them to, and it was a difficult enough admission that I started to cry when I admitted it. Naturally, He already knew. He just wanted me to admit it to myself and to Him. Once I did, I was His, end of story...

YoungBlondeSlave -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 6:27:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP When people fantasize about 'forced' submission, they aren't envisioning some guy 30 years older than them who weighs 400 lbs and hasn't showered in a month. One would hope that most of us would be able to outrun anyone who weighs 400 pounds, and if they hadn't showered in a month...we could probably smell them coming a mile away.

cpK69 -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 6:31:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YoungBlondeSlave One would hope that most of us would be able to outrun anyone who weighs 400 pounds, and if they hadn't showered in a month...we could probably smell them coming a mile away. [sm=biggrin.gif]

IronBear -> RE: Choice and submission (4/7/2009 7:41:23 AM)
The way I look at Choice and Submission is this: A person can choose to submit to me and I can choose to accept that submission. I do require a well thought out and informed choice on a potential slave's part and expect that person to have been asking me questions to clarify things I have told them or to cover points I may have forgotten. My choice selection will be based on this and my belief of their compatibility with my home. This is also based on a prerequisite of spending time with us to test the waters on both sides.

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