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Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 8:41:44 PM   
4u2spoil


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Status: offline 		This is a nod to Popeye (sorry, I can't remember the numbers) who brought this up in a different thread.

Do you think education is overrated in today's society?

My short answer: no.

My long answer: no, but degrees are, and the educational system in place in much of the world doesn't guarantee that educated means smart.

I should say that while I know some class A idiots with advanced degrees, I also know people who are quite smart, skilled at what they do and talented. But I think there are equal numbers of smart, skilled and talented people who may not get the same opportunities because they don't have the same letters. Particularly in the US where education beyond high school is not free, often not subsidized by the state/government, and for many not affordable, I think the myths of degree=life's golden ticket  and no degree=not qualified (in certain industries) needs to be shot down.

Colleges and universities have this infallible reputation as the gatekeepers of knowledge to succeed in life, and that's just not true. They can introduce concepts, introduce new ways of thinking, provide historical context and theories on a wide range of subject, and  provide the fundamentals of understanding many industries. In most subjects, they don't teach experience or how to be good at something (beyond coming up with an appropriate response to prepared questions). With no other widely accepted standard for certifying talent or ability in a certain area, degrees have become equated with skill.

That's in general. For law, or medicine or even architecture a degree is not enough. There are tests of skill and ability in applying knowledge to real world situations before someone can practice. For many other areas, it's just a matter of increasing knowledge without demonstration of an ability to apply it. I work in business, so my experience is mainly dealing with MBAs, and that's the category a lot fall into.

They were good enough to pass tests, but often fail when trying to put the ideas into practice. I remember one woman who used every buzz word she could find to cover up the fact that she wasn't that good. For all of the degrees, and late hours, her projects never performed well. The company I was at rewarded her because "she always puts in long hours" and she never failed to remind you that "I've got an MBA!" but at the end of the day it didn't make her any better at her job. Similarly, I remember getting an email from a recent college graduate that couldn't have been above a 6th grade level of English. He wasn't a journalism major, but still - if you have a degree and can't write above an elementary school level there's a problem. I also know many people who have degrees and still can't find jobs beyond Starbucks, or those who have completely unrelated jobs that they had to grab just to make their student loan payments. I sometimes wonder if the difference in lifetime earnings between a high school graduate and a college graduate is smaller than reported once you factor in all the years many students spend paying the degree off.

There's a different type of education, and it often comes from just doing something. You always hear about the billionaire dropouts, but no one ever focuses on the fact that just because those people left college doesn't mean they stopped learning. I'm sure Bill Gates and Michael Dell went through more hours than any college degree would have required while they were working on their projects. The fact that those hours weren't in a classroom doesn't make them any less valuable. Actually, the fact that those hours came without getting tied down to some lifelong debt probably makes them more valuable.
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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 8:53:37 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

Do you think education is overrated in today's society?

My short answer: no.

My long answer: no, but degrees are, and the educational system in place in much of the world doesn't guarantee that educated means smart.


Overrated in terms of whether it is an actual indicator of competence? Yes, absolutely. No question.

Overrated in terms of the advantage it offers in the job market? No, absolutely not. Unfortunately.

Very intriguing thread and refreshingly well-reasoned OP, by the way. Thank you.


< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 4/7/2009 8:54:36 PM >

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 8:59:40 PM   
aravain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

My long answer: no, but degrees are, and the educational system in place in much of the world doesn't guarantee that educated means smart.




This I agree with.

I'd go so far to say as "no, but knowledge is" though, not even necessarily just degrees. Education *should* teach experience even *more* than it teaches knowledge. College education degree programs are starting to understand/teach toward this goal, too.

What will an employer care more about... the fact that you memorized all of the presidents of the USA in order, or that you can prioritize and have a good work ethic?

Vastly oversimplified, sure, but still a good point. I've heard of a story of one of my professors' old students who got a degree in "pre-legal studies" and... couldn't get a high enough score on whatever test law schools require (LSATs, I think?) to actually *go* to law school. So, essentially, she had a useless degree, and wasted four years. She ended up having to get a paralegal certificate I suppose.

Part of the problem *is* the universities, who are trying to get people to come to school there! "If you get this degree, you can do ANYTHING!" type of advertising. It's rarely that simple.

Too tired to think *_* going to bed. Gnight.

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 9:11:32 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		It's useful in several ways.

In my field, engineering, it's almost impossible to get in without a degree.

It also should instill a basic level of literacy, communication ability, and thinking capability in its graduates.




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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 9:22:46 PM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Overrated in terms of whether it is an actual indicator of competence? Yes, absolutely. No question.

Overrated in terms of the advantage it offers in the job market? No, absolutely not. Unfortunately.

Very intriguing thread and refreshingly well-reasoned OP, by the way. Thank you.



I agree on both points. I believe they're part of why what constitutes a valuable education will never really be discussed.

Thanks for the compliment.

< Message edited by 4u2spoil -- 4/7/2009 10:02:16 PM >

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 9:38:05 PM   
MzMia


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Status: offline 		I am not going to go on and on about higher education.
I will say that the desire to learn, when it is internally driven can be powerful.

I started going to the public library by myself, years ago because I love to read.
I remember fondly going to the library at the age of 8 {by myself}, it was in walking distance,
and coming home with stacks of books.
Flash back 30+ years later, I am still going to the library, and reading stacks of books.
I love to read and learn about a wide variety of subjects. 
I was glad when I finished my college degree, because I have more time to read only what I want to read.
Reading really is fundamental, and you don't need higher education to educate yourself, IF the desire to learn is there.
 
These days, the public library has books/tapes/cd's on everything from learning foreign languages to networking computers, finances, real estate, cooking, running or opening your own business, self-improvement, and every subject from A-Z.
Many of the greatest minds in history, were self taught individuals.
Read some history,and see how much formal education, Abe Lincoln got.
 
If you don't desire to learn or broaden your horizons in America, then you are only limited by yourself.
Almost everything, you could want to learn, is possible to learn by visiting a neighborhood public library.
Can you tell, I love the library?
Peace 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 4/7/2009 9:41:57 PM >

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 9:59:33 PM   
4u2spoil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain
Vastly oversimplified, sure, but still a good point. I've heard of a story of one of my professors' old students who got a degree in "pre-legal studies" and... couldn't get a high enough score on whatever test law schools require (LSATs, I think?) to actually *go* to law school. So, essentially, she had a useless degree, and wasted four years. She ended up having to get a paralegal certificate I suppose.

Part of the problem *is* the universities, who are trying to get people to come to school there! "If you get this degree, you can do ANYTHING!" type of advertising. It's rarely that simple.


Then there are people who end up doing something completely unrelated to what they majored in - and they may do it really well. Again, it's not to say the college time was completely useless, but it's really not the best barometer of someone's ability or talent.

I completely agree with the last portion. It's that false hope that makes me feel that degrees are overrated. If there were no piece of paper to get more paper, I wonder what enrollment at colleges would look like. Part of the problem is that colleges and universities are more in the business of selling dreams than selling education. Thus starts the entry of people who really just want a raise, or certain salary, rather than the education itself. And as long as their enrollment numbers stay steady, colleges and universities continue to encourage that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

It's useful in several ways.

In my field, engineering, it's almost impossible to get in without a degree.

It also should instill a basic level of literacy, communication ability, and thinking capability in its graduates


It may have gotten lost in the post, but a large part of my opinion is on degrees (particularly advanced) in business and finance. I'm not familiar enough with science based degrees to argue either way, but I certainly see the importance in pre-qualifying someone who wants to get hands on experience with something that can physically affect a person.

An unqualified architect could kill someone if their building collapses. An incompetent engineer could kill someone if the engine they built explodes. The dangers of an untrained doctor are obvious. At the same time, there are quite possibly people who could become perfectly qualified without undergrad degrees, but there's not a better way to assess that ability. In other areas degrees can be completely useless. A degree in finance doesn't mean you actually have any skill at making money (see AIG, Lehman Brothers). An MBA doesn't mean you're any better at building a business than the sales guy with a high school diploma or basic undergrad degree.

While I agree with the "should" of your last sentence, I've known way too many barely literate college graduates who had no sense of logic for it to hold true as a constant. I don't mean the sleepy typos everyone makes, or occasional grammatical mistakes, but repeated incoherent notes, letters, etc. that required an assistant - often a high school graduate - to make them readable. 

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 10:41:42 PM   
sravaka


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Status: offline 		What I'd like to know is why there is such a vested interest hereabouts (and throughout the land) in dissing advanced degrees.  Or any degrees.

I speak as someone who came from an utterly ordinary (if not backwards) background, found myself in the ivy league as an undergraduate by accident (and probably would have reneged if I could have in the early stages) then deliberately in the ivy league for my MA and PhD. 

Now that I'm done I wouldn't trade it.  In particular, I wouldn't trade the undergrad part of it.  The better the school you get yourself into at that point the more you can learn from your comrades (even if it's painful when you are intimidated by them at first.)  Whether you ultimately decide to throw your lot in with them or attempt to supersede them on your own terms.... there is nothing more valuable for purposes of making your way through the world than being around people who are smarter and/or have been more privileged and/or are harder working than you. (or some combination)  (I realize that some of those things are not like the others.... but I persist in believing that all three matter for purposes of worldly success.)

Being around such people is potentially as much a part of one's education as the material one studies.  You don't meet them in high school.  You also don't need to be in the ivy league to meet them-- they are at liberal arts colleges, and at state schools, and at community colleges.  They are the people who want to better themselves in every sense, and who see books and conversation as part and parcel of doing so.

I am a humanities type, so my view of education will be different from those in the sciences or other more practical pursuits.  But I am with DarkSteven here.  The point of a liberal arts education (and this is what a 4-yr college ought to be providing you with, along with whatever you major in) is to teach you to read, write, and think critically.  Those skills will serve you in any endeavor.  And they are things that you can learn more effectively under the tutelage of someone who is devoted to the teaching of them-- something that can almost never be found outside of a collegiate milieu.

Yes, fine, there are idiots with advanced degrees.  Pat yourselves on the back for not wasting the money and time if you too stood only to end up as an idiot with an advanced degree.  But entertain the possibility that there is something to be learned in college and grad school when all goes as it should.

I don't know what kind of college experiences you all had, but I know I make it my business to lead my students to places and ways of thinking that they might never have contemplated before, and that will serve them in the real world.  And the vast majority of my colleagues have the same aspirations. 

I don't think avoidance of education in the name of "overrated" or anything else is anything to congratulate yourself about.  The trick is approaching it intelligently (something that does not necessarily require prior formal education) and making it work for you. 

(note:  you is generic, not directed to the OP or anyone else.)







< Message edited by sravaka -- 4/7/2009 10:58:16 PM >

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 11:34:14 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I'd like to echo what Sravaka says. I went to an excellent university and was around stimulating and challenging students and professors. I learned how to learn in a fundamental manner. While I use the stuff I earned in my degree program every day in my work I am also grateful that I went to a university that still believes in a true liberal arts education.

To a great degree however I think you get out of education what you put in. I've been involved in hiring college graduates with degrees that indicated at least a minimal knowledge of what they would be doing only to discover to that they knew effectively nothing. Now as a standard part of all interviews of college graduates I ask a simple question, how many of your textbooks have you kept? Someone who answers none or only a couple had better wow me in some way.

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/7/2009 11:52:32 PM   
aravain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Now as a standard part of all interviews of college graduates I ask a simple question, how many of your textbooks have you kept? Someone who answers none or only a couple had better wow me in some way.


I hope "I had to chose between selling an old textbook that I wouldn't use for another class and getting a textbook for *another* class (Or, y'know, eating for a few weeks)" would be adequate?

I know very *very* few people who can afford to keep textbooks (especially because they cost upwards of $150 *used*) after a class has ended, unless that textbook will be used for another class. Myself, if I didn't sell textbooks as I stopped needing them for classes... well, I wouldn't be able to afford new textbooks (and would effectively fail any classes that rely on them). I also know people who just use the reserve copies at the school library, rather than buying their own. When I majored in English it was simpler... most of the books were less than $40 (new or used), and were *actual* books, not text books. The downside was that for any class you were required to get between 5 and 15 books (and purchase and write *in* the books, ruining any chance for selling them used). As a music education major, most of my teachers aren't requiring textbooks anymore. They realize that, effectively, you *can't* and then expect the student to go for a full semester student teaching (and, hence, unable to work an outside job). Any books I've had to buy for music ed related classes have cost $30 or less (new), and haven't broken the bank for how many they require and are perfect for resale.

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 12:32:39 AM   
UncleNasty


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Status: offline 		There are so many things not taught in schools at every level that the quality of an education is greatly influenced and impacted by the motivation of the student. Someone that wants to do little work and merely get by can do so easily, and at many levels, even in top rated institutions.

Consider the example of GWB. Silver spoon in his mouth, access to the best and finest, advanced degrees from some of the finest institutions. But he left every entity he had control over in worse shape when his tenure ended.

On the other hand a motivated student will wring out the most "smart fluid" from just about any experience, and will continue to apply that to future experiences and opportunities.

Just my worthless two (2) copper clad zinc medalions.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 12:59:38 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Now as a standard part of all interviews of college graduates I ask a simple question, how many of your textbooks have you kept? Someone who answers none or only a couple had better wow me in some way.


I got my BA in history.  I kept everyone of my history books, and quite a few from other subjects.  I did resell most of my books from intro classes and basic courses; those damn books were expensive, I needed the money. 

I can honestly say I have not used my knowledge of history in my different occupations over the years.  However, I learned a lot of things in university that are invaluable to me.  My study and research skills are much, much better as a result.  I was rather shy before college, it helped me to become more social.  I learned to ask lots of questions, and I wasn't afraid of feeling stupid when I did.  Communication skills are one of the most important things you can have. 

I loved college, and I am very glad I chose to go.  I hear people say negative things about it, and it tends to be people that didn't go or dropped out.  You don't have to have a degree for success, but it certainly helps. 

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 2:13:39 AM   
colouredin


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*Disclaimer* My experience relates to the British education system and may not apply in other countries.

I have a degree and am doing a second, I think most degrees are completely pointless. After uni I applied for 500 jobs and pretty much all told me I didnt have enough experience and would have been better starting at the bottom and working my way up rather than going to uni. My second degree is a vocational one which is different but the first was the more traditional academic. It only means something if you are getting the very highest grades, I didnt and to be honest felt the subjective nature of marking caused me the most problems.

The thing is people learn differently and express that learning differently, I excel in oral presentations something that is pretty non exsistant in much of education the majority being measured by tests and assignments. I always argue that the persons attainment in class should be assessed too but that wont happen again because of the subjective thing.

I think basic education is crucial. I think that up until gcse's (16) education is flawed but generally comprehensive. I think after that there should be far more focus on vocation rather than education for educations sake. Here 50% of the population have degrees, that means that degress are becoming less and less important, to stand out now you need a post grad, eventually more people will have them too and so you will need a PHD people will spend most of their lives learning just to get more money.

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 6:00:36 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I will say that the desire to learn, when it is internally driven can be powerful.



MxMia, you bring up a point that has always vexed me.  The big "Stay in School" campaigns bother me no end.  If someone does not value education and is about to drop out of school, sloganeering to keep an unmotivated slug in school really accomplishes nothing.

For statistics bugs like me, this is a prime example of the misuse of statistics.  Surveys showed that HS dropouts got fewer and worse jobs than HS graduates, and concluded that the diploma itself was the deciding factor, not the personality traits that led to the dropping out in the first place.  So now we're wasting resources to keep bad students in school and devalue the diploma instead of addressing the core issues that make education unappreciated.  Ironically, the "solution" as adopted actually DOES devalue education!


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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 6:33:44 AM   
Vanityfull


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Status: offline 		i went to school in some shitty areas and was caste into the doomed to fail catagory quickly due to my social backround and disgraphia, i know collage is different but i dont really have the cash, intrest or time to put few years into it, id rather just travel, party and learn of the world hands on, maybe get hooked on smack or something..
its really way to much money and i have no real intrest in it, im happy with the money i make now and i dont plan on having a wife and kids to support so i dont see a point, alot of my freinds have gone and dropped out becuase they hated it so much, and these are people i see as far more patient with the whole school thing than me. i could maybe see myself going to university someday but probly not until im 30ish. im a beleiver your only young once and shouldnt spend it all stuck in classes

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 7:52:31 AM   
Termyn8or


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I believe I posted something about this subject not long ago. IIRC I gave three examples of leadres of industry in this country, though admittedly at least one of them was not born in the US. For the immediate purpose I am really referring to education in the US, not other countries.

The fact is we are behind. Cite one Lewin A. R. W. Edwards out of Austrailia. I only met him online but he was finished with primary school at a pretty young age and dropped out of college to go to work, in his chosen field which is chiefly writitng drivers and such for computer devices. He was working here, living in NY on an H1B visa before he was old enough to drink. His online resume states that after college his education has been primarily ad hoc.

Which brings us to me, a tenth grade dropout if that. Really I cut more than I went, in fact in the beginning I cut school to go to work. I was soon making comparable money to my Parents. However over the years I, as well as quite a few others in my field have come to the conclusion that it is difficult if not impossible to teach.

I would also have to admit that most of my post "graduate" studies have been ad hoc. My field of endeavor includes problem solving abilities on a scale which I am quite sure are difficult at best to teach in a classroom evironment. However there are some things I do not know, things that many others take for granted. I have actually read more revisionist history then history. For example I know the treachery Roger B. Taney commited to get to be a federal judge, subsequently becoming famous (or infamous) for his Dred Scott decision. However I couldn't tell you which President put him into that cushy job. Oh I read it, but did not commit it to memory. Perhaps a classroom environment would've forced me to do so.

In a way I have to admit that a formal education can be valuable in that it will, via the curriculum, bring up aspects of a subject one might totally miss otherwise. On the other hand of course some of these things are actually dead enders which serve no purpose in later life.

At any rate I believe that most formal education does not effectively teach problem solving skills, in most cases that comes from life experience, actually alot of it while in school, but outside the classroom.

The thing that gets me is the obvious lack of certain things that everyone should know that some of the degreed people do not. People even in positions of authority. People who don't know for example that data are and license is. One is plural, one is not. This seems to be an issue for many. So many people make that mistake it is no longer an accurate measure of their true intelligence, why ? Because there are a few holes in their body of knowledge propogated by these highly regarded institutes of higher learning.

I think in the final analysis it is the person that counts the most. Years ago I wrote so poorly I would probably get kicked off here simply for being incoherent. I learned how to write and structure sentences and paragraphs and so forth because of a true desire to be well understood. It made me no money, except for those times when I have to generate some company correspondence or the like. However despite this previous shortcoming, my comprehension of what I read has always been above par.

Why ?

I think the difference lies in two factors. Remember the old saying about leading a horse to water. In the past I was only interested in science and technology, and indeed some of the better advances were made in that scope during my lifetime, thoiugh I still claim that very little has been invented during that time. However many new ways were found to use extant technology and it turned out to be quite interesting. For me it was technology, technology and also some technology. I had no interest in history or anything much else. I had no use for it. Now in later life I find some aspects interesting and will study on it once in a while. Many years ago I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial ten foot pole.

I have never been an advocate of compulsory education, I believe that it should come when it is wanted, and therefore will be accepted. In other words, in most cases it is not the school that makes the difference, it is the student.

T

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 8:41:36 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


I have never been an advocate of compulsory education, I believe that it should come when it is wanted, and therefore will be accepted. In other words, in most cases it is not the school that makes the difference, it is the student.




Problem is that pretty much no child will go to school, they would much rather stay at home and play with their friends, I liked school to be honest but saying that if I didnt have to go I would have missed most of it and I do think that school teaches some valuable lessons. I may not agree with the structure of society but education does provide the basis for it, kids have to get up, they have to learn to be responsibile etc all things needed to work which we need to do to live. I think without education we would probably end up with a far higher portion of society not working. Maybe I am wrong though


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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 8:54:52 AM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		I do not believe any education is a waste or overrated...However....I do wonder if it is fair and  level to everyone or worth the cost.

I believe colleges have become cash cows and seem more interested in generating money streams then useful degrees.

Look at it....if a person has no desire to earn above a BA/BS is the college honest when it recommends a degree in History. English, or Sociology?  What job will you get?  Now if they tell them accounting, nursing, or teaching with these degress you can earn a very good living with a BA. 

I see ads on TV in our area pushing degrees in English and history, when my son started college, I told him not to waste his time on these degrees unless he was planning on going on to earn higher degrees.  But the problem is, the colleges make these classes and degrees so easy to earn most people choose them for their major, not having the knowledge yet of how little they are worth in the real world.


Me, I have my BA in Sociology, not the best investment in myself I have ever made  

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RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 10:40:03 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Housesub, colleges and uni's are supposed to be tax-exempt orgs. But, they've turned into cash cows like you said. The term is "degree factories."
One thing a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding is, *the law of supply and demand.*
In this "global economy" that's been foisted on us, when 100,000 blue collar jobs go overseas 30-40,000 white collar jobs go with them.
As I've said before this economy really doesn't need 60% of high school grads to be going on to college or uni.
If they had their way 100% of high school grads would go onto college or unis, like it or not.
Colleges and unis unlike the rest of society really haven't changed their business model to reflect this new economy like the rest of society has.
They keep graduating people with degrees who end up in jobs that really don't require a degree.
As I've said before, fully half of the waiters and waitresses who serve me when I go out to eat have degrees in sociology, psychology, political science, and now even bus. admin!
The jobs for those people in the fields they studied *simply do not exist.* That's the cold, hard reality that colleges and unis should acknowledge and deal with but they don't. What possable sense does it make to get a degree in something that you'll never be able to make a living at while putting yourself in upwards of $100k in debt?
In the U.S. government you see this kind of thing all the time.
Jobs that were done by secretaries 20 years ago for half of what they're making now, now "requiring" a "degree" and having "titles" and now making more than double what we were paying the secretaries for what are in essence paper-shuffling jobs.
It's pretty obvious what's happened over the years, people with degrees got into those jobs and have been "feathering their nests."
And they've created layers and layers of "management" positions and titles! Everything has to be "approved" by eight differant people or "departments."
Does that make sense to anyone? I have a degree in bus. admin. from a school in New England and from a management perspective it *really* doesn't make sense to me! I mean what life-changing decisions are those papershufflers ever going to be making doing those kinds of jobs?
The term "overqualified" comes to mind.
You can call it whatever you like but a secretarial job is just that, it simply doesn't "require" a degree.
I was career military in the USCG and never had a degree until I was 40 years of age. Having worked in the govt. for many years I can tell you without a doubt that my degree isn't a neccessity to do most of those jobs.
At our grad. ceremony one of my friends asked me if I felt any "differant" now. I said, "ah,... not really." He said something to the effect like, "so this means that they have to pay us more money now just because we went to school; suckers!"
And when I got my first job in the insurance industry my trainer on the very first day told me; "forget everything you learned in college, we're going to teach you *our* way!" And she did. I was thinking to myself; "well, there goes 4 years of college down the drain!"
And, the only reason I got the job was because I was in the USCG, that's *all* the interviewer wanted to talk about was what I did in the USCG.
Of course I was trained as a manager so many people in here won't like or agree with what I think because they're not attuned to the "bottom line" like I was trained to be. Us managers are the ones who lay off people like them and look for efficiencies and deficiencies.
Now, some jobs *do* require degrees like medicine and many others.
One president, James Buchanan I believe never attended one day of school and taught himself to read.
You can become President of the United States without a degree. One thing I definately don't like and that I think is unhealthy for the country is that there are too many lawyers in our government.
If there were too many truckdrivers in our government what do you think the country would look like today?
Or too many former military people?
We used to have a great system in this country years ago that worked extremely well. It was called "O.J.T." on the job training.
And cos. "promoted from within."
That's what I did in the insurance industry. Of course colleges and unis don't make any money from it so they bad-mouth it.
"On the job training!" "Well I never!!!"
As for "better schools" I think that's a fallacy that one college or uni is "better" than another. All schools are certified and accredited by their state board of education. If we numbered schools instead of named them it wouldn't make any differance would it? Harvard could be "school number 341," and Providence College "school number 432".
That "Ivy League" B.S. is just that,...B.S. It's a stereotype.
I've always had a laugh at that slogan, "once you have a degree no-one can take it away from you." Who'd want to? For what purpose?
It's more like you're stuck with it and the $125k "NUT" you're going to have to pay off over the next 15 to 20 years!
"Here's you're degree now get down to the carwash they have two openings."
Yup, the law of supply and demand.
If you took out an ad in the paper for a "Psychologist" you'd have 250 applicants for that one position.
That's very telling.


_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Is Education Overrated? - 4/8/2009 10:47:52 AM   
4u2spoil


Posts: 211
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

What I'd like to know is why there is such a vested interest hereabouts (and throughout the land) in dissing advanced degrees.  Or any degrees.


I read your last sentence, so know this is not personally directed at me, but I'll reply from a personal perspective. I have nothing against people with degrees. Nearly everyone in my immediate family has at least an undergraduate degree. Some of the ones who I think of as very intelligent, educated people have advanced degrees from ivy league schools. I know they put in a lot of hard work to earn them and they've put what they learned to use teaching others who've gone on to advanced degrees.

The problem as I see it, is that in many places degrees have become interchangeable with talent or ability. Particularly when it comes to hiring and promotion practices. I've noted exceptions to this - fields where experiential learning is often required to complete a degree that allows a person to practice in the first place. But there are many jobs where people who have education through actual experience or some other means, are passed over for those with degrees. As a means of assessing talent and ability when it comes to acutal application in a work environment, I think the importance of a degree is overrated.

That's a very broad statement, and again I'll say that I wouldn't state it as fact for every industry. If your industry is teaching or education, then I'd say a degree certifying that you've been able to perform in a classroom setting is highly applicable to your career. There are other fields where what you hear in class, or read in a book and recite back when tested just don't have anything to do with the job.

And that's where I think others may have some animosity towards degree holders and "eggheads" in general. I'll try to find a link, but I remember reading a study that found the most successful business leaders were either dropouts, or people who never went beyond a 4-year education. I'm sure there's some shared personal trait there beyond the lack of an advanced degree, but I think it's important to separate advanced education from success, ability or talent.

quote:


But entertain the possibility that there is something to be learned in college and grad school when all goes as it should.



I definitely don't mean to suggest that formal education has nothing to offer. I do think the reliance on degrees as a measure of talent or ability needs to be reassessed, as does what defines education in general.

(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 20
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