Why the GOP is unraveling.

Why the GOP is unraveling. (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 9:38:01 AM)
A fascinating article in the Huffy on how the modern conservative movement is built upon a fundamentally incoherent ideology. Willl the GOP emerge from its ruins, or will the five main currents of 'conservative' thinking - libertarian conservatism, libertarianism, old fashioned fiscal conservatism, national security conservatism, and prejudice, all at odds with one another, ensure it remains divided forever after? "It took a charismatic leader to bring [the GOP] together (Ronald Reagan), a tacit agreement among its coalition partners to give each other what they wanted, and a message machine to start selling the idea that that there was coherence to a conservative "philosophy" that was anything but coherent. Modern conservatism wove together five discrete strands and interest groups that couldn't coexist. What is remarkable is how well it held together despite the fact that those strands were actually difficult to interweave." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/drew-westen/the-five-strands-of-conse_b_187675.html PS: edited dyslexic typo [8\|] .

slvemike4u -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 10:04:51 AM)
It will take years and some new ideas,or perhaps a jettisoning of some old ones,to unravel this Gordian knot of ideologies.They should start with throwing the religious right out of the drivers seat...hell off the bus works for me.

Owner59 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 1:12:04 PM)
It was a coalition of fundies and predator capitalists(Reagenomicists) who made up the party active.Separated,neither has much influence.Together,with a pretty air head like Reagen,that`s enough to win nationally. Neither group hangs out much and now the love affair is over. But they still hold most of the party leadership positions.Steel`s days are numbered.Eric Cantor seems to be gaining the elected leadership position,which only means more of the same or worse from the Grand Old Party.

Marc2b -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 1:39:32 PM)
Please tell me that you don’t think that prejudice is unique to the Republican Party? All the people who are crowing about the so called “GOP crack-up” are going to be deeply disappointed. As deeply disappointed as all the people who crowed about the “Democratic Party crack-up” when the GOP took over the Congress in ’94. The same pattern has played itself out over and over again since the founding of the Republic (and in fact, since before then). The names may have been different but the pattern has held true. One side acquires power, can’t solve everything, gets blamed for everything, gets tossed out (“they’re cracking up, yaaaaay!”), regroups and comes back because the other side can’t solve everything and so gets blamed for everything and so gets tossed out… and the whirly-gig goes on. Anybody who believes that we are entering into a permanent era of Democratic led peace and harmony is a fool. They are just as much a fool as those who thought the election of Ronald Regan was the onset of a Republican led era of peace and harmony. Baring some calamity that wipes us all out, the question isn’t: will the GOP reacquire power but when will the GOP reacquire power. If Obama does relatively well, it could be as long as sixteen to twenty years. If Obama fucks up spectacularly it could happen in only four. Most likely it will be in eight to twelve years. No doubt many will be celebrating the crack-up of the Democratic Party when it does happen. "The wheels on the bus go round and round..."

FullCircle -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 1:41:18 PM)
Let us do a comparison with the grand old juke of York to find out where they be going wrong: GOJOY marches up and down hills whilst the GOP remains static in the mire GOJOY has ten thousand men, GOP isn't so popular Since the GOJOY is fairly lyrically repetitive there isn't much more room for comparison.

kittinSol -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 1:50:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Please tell me that you don’t think that prejudice is unique to the Republican Party? Absolutely, as a motivational, polarising force, prejudice is unique to the Republicans - I completely agree with the article: "The final strand of conservatism is the one Nixon exploited with his Southern Strategy and the Republicans have exploited ever since, whether the issue is voting rights, "welfare queens," affirmative action, or the fate of "illegals": prejudice, whether conscious (as when Reagan and Nixon used, let's say, "colorful" terms, to describe those on welfare) or unconscious (as when Bob Corker ran a race against Harold Ford, a black Congressman from Tennessee, asking, "Who's the real Tennessean?", when what he was really activating in the back of voters' minds was, "he's not really one of 'us,' now is he"?). (...) Although it's easy to localize this strand of conservatism as Southern, given that the GOP has become a regional party, it is important to note that had the Presidential election only included white voters (the Republicans' fantasy), McCain would have won in a 63-37 landslide over Barack Obama. But conservatives don't have much on their side on this one either, except to the extent that they can block the vote, because demographics are running in the wrong direction for them over the next 50 years."

Marc2b -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 2:03:02 PM)
quote: Absolutely, as a motivational, polarising force, prejudice is unique to the Republicans - I completely agree with the article: (scratches his head... hmmm... is she being serious or sarcastic?) Well, I hope it's sarcastic but maybe you're right. I mean, I've never heard the Democrats blame our problems on greedy rich people or Christian fundalmentalists or anything like that. Come on. The question isn't whether people are prejudice but who are they prejudice against?

rulemylife -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 2:54:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b (scratches his head... hmmm... is she being serious or sarcastic?) Well, I hope it's sarcastic but maybe you're right. I mean, I've never heard the Democrats blame our problems on greedy rich people or Christian fundalmentalists or anything like that. Come on. The question isn't whether people are prejudice but who are they prejudice against? So if I dislike someone who is greedy I'm exhibiting prejudice? How about if I dislike a burglar or a murderer. Am I being prejudiced against them too?

samboct -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 3:00:54 PM)
Hi Kittin I love ya babe....but you didn't go back far enough-George Wallace (Dem) was certainly a race baiter and the guy who beat him for Alabama's democratic governorship, Patterson was a supporter of the KKK. http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/a_thug_for_them_deadenders_thugging_for_me.php The South is full of examples of Dixiecrats- Southern racists who voted democratic because blacks used to vote Republican (party of Lincoln). They defected during the election of Reagan and the South has undergone some wrenching realignments. Both political parties have used prejudice when it suits them- neither one has clean hands. I hope the Republicans get their act together soon. Democracy works best when it balances disparate viewpoints and interests and right now the Republican representation is both fragmented and idiotic. Either they get their act together with some new leadership, or disagreeing with Marc- a new party forms and displaces the Republicans. As a liberal- I'm not cheering for the chaos of the Republicans. I think this party made a terrible mistake when they put Ronnie Rayguns up front, since the true magnitude of the disaster of his policies has yet to be counted- and I doubt it ever will. He was a vile and vicious old man... Sam

SilverMark -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 3:43:33 PM)
From strictly simplistic point of view.....Who is the leader of the Republican party?....Michael Steele isn't the answer....who is truly the leader?

rulemylife -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 3:50:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark From strictly simplistic point of view.....Who is the leader of the Republican party?....Michael Steele isn't the answer....who is truly the leader? Rush Limbaugh. (I thought we already covered this) [:D]

MarsBonfire -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 4:14:04 PM)
1. They allowed themselves to get trapped by Bush's attempts to crown himself king. They are now seen (rightly so) as power crazed. Nearly fascists, in fact. You guys have the stink of wiretapping, torture, and pre-emtive wars based on lies on you. 2. We've tried "trickle down" economics and tax cuts for the rich how many times now? It's never worked. Ever. They have no new economic ideas. They say when you keep trying the same thing over and over again, but expect different results, it's a sign of mental illness. 3. Bozos, jokes and cartoons. Those are the people that they keep offering up as supposed leaders. Who are the faces of the GOP these days? Steele, Jindal, Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, "Joe the non-plumber"... Who the FUCK would follow any of these self serving creeps? You butt raped McCain by not letting him be himself during the election... you did the same thing with Dole. Whomever it is on your side, who keeps telling your candidates to play to the stupid, the hate filled, the gun totin... you really need to fire those assholes! 4. Sorry you don't think the GOP is the party of old, white, racist men. But, if the RNC crowds and the folks who showed up at your much ballyhooed "tea parties" the other day were any indication... you guys are about as balanced in minority representation as African Apartid. You need to work on your outreach... you know, maybe support legal minorities instead of yelling at the top of your lungs how you'd like to shoot all mexicans at the border, and stop working in the back rooms to keep other minorites "in their place." (cutting affirmative action programs, killing fairness-in-lending programs for blacks trying to buy homes or start businesses, and whipping up "defense of marriage acts" designed to fuck over LGBT folk...) Sure, you countered Obama being in the oval with Steele(hey, he's a black guy, right? Won't just any black guy do? Was that what you were thinking?)... but everyone pretty much saw that for what it was: a political ploy. 5. Ditch the Talibangelists! You hang onto the "Focus on the Family" BS like it's a life preserver, and the Titanic went down. (Well, okay, it sorta did... for you) Here's a clue: the bulk of America sees them as extremeists! As long as the GOP writes policy to please these nutcases, you guys are NOT going to get widespread appeal. They're not the huge groundswell of anti-gay assholes they used to be... now they're just a minority of anti-gay assholes. Stop fucking with important research like stem cells, or pushing religion into science classrooms, because the Bible thumpers tell you to, and you might reclaim some of your integrity. Look, even you guys know that RU-486 and other "plan B" drugs are making abortion obsolete. In ten years, it won't even be a viable hot button for you to push... 6. Change the tone/move to the middle. The people who threw the election your way were not your base. Nor was it everyone on the democratic side voting in record numbers...(although that helped!) No, it was the great American independant: the moderates. But, you guys are so fucking far out on the fringe, they couldn't even see you! Hint: you ran a pro torture candidate... Guess what? Moderates actually believe in the Constitution. (It's that document you've been wiping your ass with the last eight years.) Again, I say, IF you had allowed McCain to be himself, not saddled him with "Caribou Barbie" and let him speak from the middle... you would have had it in the bag! But, you ran the single worst campaign in living memory... and Obama's team was near perfection. Playing things logically, reasonably, and NOT losing his cool, ever! By contrast, McCain was looking like the old guy yelling at the kids to get off his lawn. He LIED about going back to DC to Letterman, he was desperate enough to pump up "Joe the Plumber", he allowed himself to take on an Alaskan grifter as his running mate with ZERO vetting... The tone... man have you gone back to look at the shit you guys pulled during the elcection? "Obama's a muslim... he was educated in a Madrassa... he's an arab... he's not really an American... " (shit that you STILL allow to circulate, which only continues to make you guys look like a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing FOOLS!) Limbaugh isn't entertaining anymore, he's just on an anti-Obama rant every single fucking day... his numbers are starting to falter because of it. Beck and O'Riley? Please! Beck comes off like that kid crying into the camera, asking for Brittany to be left alone... O'Riley's a joke that stalks women who support anti-rape communities.... fer gods sake, don't you SEE what this shit is doing to America's perception of you? Welcome to the 21st century... (and the GOP has barely made it out of the 19th...) Where every mistake you make is repeated endlessly on cable, and Youtube... (Got that, Macaca?)

Marc2b -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 4:41:23 PM)
quote: So if I dislike someone who is greedy I'm exhibiting prejudice? How about if I dislike a burglar or a murderer. Am I being prejudiced against them too? No. But... If you presume somebody with a certain income level is greedy or if you consider anybody who holds qualities (race, religion, political philosopy, etc., etc.,) in common with a burglar or a murder, then... yes, you are prejudice.

slvemike4u -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 4:54:53 PM)
So the architects of the "southern strategy" aren't racist's....scratches head ala Marc I'm confused...If the Republicans aren't the party of obstruction(as far as civil rights are concerned) why the strategy?Political expediency perhaps, after Johnson twisted arms and passed the civil rights bill...Republicans looked at the landscape and made a cold calculating decision...one they will have to address,given the changing face of the electorate.

rulemylife -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 5:12:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: So if I dislike someone who is greedy I'm exhibiting prejudice? How about if I dislike a burglar or a murderer. Am I being prejudiced against them too? No. But... If you presume somebody with a certain income level is greedy or if you consider anybody who holds qualities (race, religion, political philosopy, etc., etc.,) in common with a burglar or a murder, then... yes, you are prejudice. And how would you rate Madoff, who had that "certain income level"? Is it ok for me to consider him akin to a burglar?

Marc2b -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 5:36:10 PM)
quote: And how would you rate Madoff, who had that "certain income level"? Is it ok for me to consider him akin to a burglar? Madoff is one person who commited a crime, think of him whatever you want. If someone else has an income level on par with his, how does that equate to that person being a criminal? Madoff's gains being ill gotten does not mean that everyone with an income level on par with his have commited a crime to get it. All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. All succesful con artists have money but not all people who have money are con artists. This isn't difficult concept to grasp.

rulemylife -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 5:43:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Madoff is one person who commited a crime, think of him whatever you want. If someone else has an income level on par with his, how does that equate to that person being a criminal? Madoff's gains being ill gotten does not mean that everyone with an income level on par with his have commited a crime to get it. All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. All succesful con artists have money but not all people who have money are con artists. This isn't difficult concept to grasp. Unfortunately, we seem to be having an over-abundance of poodles these days. Former Houston billionaire charged with 'massive fraud' \| TOP ...NEW YORK -- Federal regulators on Tuesday charged Texas financier R. Allen Stanford and three of his firms with a “massive” fraud that centered around ...

Marc2b -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 6:32:18 PM)
quote: Unfortunately, we seem to be having an over-abundance of poodles these days. There are over six billion people in the world, what the hell do you expect? quote: Former Houston billionaire charged with 'massive fraud' \| TOP ...NEW YORK -- Federal regulators on Tuesday charged Texas financier R. Allen Stanford and three of his firms with a “massive” fraud that centered around ... Citing the existence of more than one poodle still doesn't prove that all dogs are poodles. The fact that a few Texans are being indicted for fraud still dosen't prove that all rich people are greedy. What it proves, obviously, is that all Texans commit fraud. So let's hate all Texans.

DarkSteven -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 6:53:39 PM)
While I agree with the premise of the article, I feel that Westen overlooked the most obvious way that the GOP can win - if the Dems blow it. Obama succeeded largely because Bush's incoherent and idiotic policies proved to be a disaster. If we as a nation continue downhill, it is very likely that we will have alternating parties in power, just long enough for the voters to turn on each party in turn. Curiously the article does not even address the GOP's fundamental economic principle of reduced taxes, even at the expense of a ballooning deficit. That was Bush's primary economic mantra and if 9/11 had not occurred, it might have been his main legacy. (Of course, Bush's economic policies adopted wholesale bailouts in his final months.) When Jindal gave his infamous speech in response to Obama, he even dredged up the tax cuts idea because the GOP seems to not have the will to reduce goevrnment any more.

TheHeretic -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/16/2009 6:56:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife How about if I dislike a burglar or a murderer. Am I being prejudiced against them too? If you are a conservative, yes. Those words are declared "code" by the Sharptonites, and talking about such things make you a racist. To the OP, I'm sure the good folks at "Huffy" have a complete and comprehensive of understanding of conservative thought and motivation. Probably on par with the FOX news competency standards when it comes to giving fair and balanced coverage to social welfare programs... <sarcasm> For people who like to sit around and agree with other in all their shared prejudice, I'm sure it's a great read. Marc is right. These obits get written for the other side, all the time. About as accurate as the obits of Dracula, or Jason Voorhees.

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