RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 2:50:28 PM)

FullCircle you bring up an interesting point,some of the self same posters will state tomorrow how they need their guns to protect then from the same govt.whose actions they are ok with today.They seem to be of the opinion that their govt isn't to be trusted.Amazing when you think of it.




StrangerThan -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 4:23:15 PM)

I read it. I also read the subject line here, the headline on the article. I also, as rule apparently didn't see, saw that a, not a box full, but a caterpillar was discussed. It wasn't even insect(s).

It really doesn't make much difference to me. Torture is, I suppose, torture, even if it is a single bug. There, all the hangwringers and human rights criers can be satisfied. I still think it's idiotic to lead with a fucking bug. Not just idiotic, but how rabid some folks are in their hatred.

Mine is pretty much an equal opportunity dislike. Both sides suck. But this is stupid.




Sanity -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 4:45:26 PM)


Defense of the nation is a legitimate role of government, but disarming its own populace is not. Limited government, Constitutional government, as far as I know was never considered radical or extremist until the Obama administration came along.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

FullCircle you bring up an interesting point,some of the self same posters will state tomorrow how they need their guns to protect then from the same govt.whose actions they are ok with today.They seem to be of the opinion that their govt isn't to be trusted.Amazing when you think of it.




slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 5:50:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Defense of the nation is a legitimate role of government, but disarming its own populace is not. Limited government, Constitutional government, as far as I know was never considered radical or extremist until the Obama administration came along.

Did you intentionally miss the point or was I too vague.You and others seem willing to beleive any assertion your govt makes on this issue....evidencing a beleif in your govt.....that belies the mistrust stated when the issue is guns.
This is a contradiction which you obviously don't want to address.




MarsBonfire -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 6:14:48 PM)

The thing that worries me... and I'm not going to mention any names here... but the folks on this BDSM forum, who feel that the US need not respect the rule of law... that we should echew ethics on this issue... they are also people who occasionally have other partners helpless in their presence. If they feel that the US government need not worry itself about limits... what does that say about their personal ethics within the framework of BDSM?

In other words... if they think it's good enough for the US government... that it doesn't need to regaurd limits or laws (safewords) as valid... shouldn't that make any subs playing with them a little concerned?




Sanity -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 6:23:15 PM)

You equate capturing al-Qaeda planners and leaders with BDSM relationships?

Well, sorry but I wonder about that...

Edited to add,
what the CIA operatives did with that handfull of terrorist officers must not have been terribly offensive or illegal, since the Obama administration has recently announced that it sees no reason to investigate or prosecute any of them.




Daddysredhead -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 6:27:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The Germans actually treated our prisoners well in both world wars, as well as Italy in the second.


Um, no...

My 84 year old dad just called a bullshit on this.  His cousin was a prisoner of war in Germany.  He was captured and beaten, and when he finally made it back home, he weighed all of 85 pounds.  He didn't go over there looking like a skeleton who could barely walk, and died soon after coming back to the US.

So, the myth that American POW's in WWII were basically treated gently and given room service at the Berlin Hilton is the biggest crock I think I've read thus far.

I'm guessing that you are not from a military background.  I could be wrong, but it seems that non-military familiar people tend to think that war is something fluffier than it is.

~ Red




Daddysredhead -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 6:29:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

In other words... if they think it's good enough for the US government... that it doesn't need to regaurd limits or laws (safewords) as valid... shouldn't that make any subs playing with them a little concerned?


For me, no. 




Daddysredhead -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 6:32:23 PM)

~FR~

I hate bugs.  I just killed two centipedes in my room.  I suppose I should feel sorry for the loss of life, but I don't.  They don't pay rent here, and they invaded my space.  I very well may be a terrorist in my own home.  I think I can live with that.




cohenne -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 6:51:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

Attempting to give a damn......

sorry, can't give a damn.



No surprise. After all, that Constitution thing is just a silly piece of paper, right? Doesn't mean a thing to a Real American.



uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh THAT DOCUMENT IS FOR AMERICANS (those who were born here or who GAINED citizenship)NOT FOR TERRORISTS, NOT GERMANS, NOT JAPANIES, NOT MEXICANS, NOT ALIEANS. You act as if these terrorists follow international law. As if they did not attack 2 buildings in new york city: killing many innocent people. These terrorists do not believe in freedom of religion or individualaity.

Sorry, I am just a little pissed off that I read pandas ignorant opinionated statement.

[Mod Note:  personal attack removed]





Owner59 -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 7:02:42 PM)

uuuuuummmm.... Wrong.

Listen to the 1st and 2nd sentence.

Then start respecting our Constitution.





slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 7:23:02 PM)

Sanity....Obama has said agents involved will not be subject to prosecutions.The President also said these actions undermined our moral position.The President left open the option of prosecuting those higher up the food chain and those that wrote the opinions.
Now while your post was correct it was also misleading wasn't it?
Daddy's Redhead yes you could be wrong.There is no family member requirement to understanding war and all its costs.One need not pay the bill directly to see the damage done.
Cohenne you seem content to allow terrorists to dictate to your country how conveniently flexible our values can be.Some of us hold our values and our beliefs above the reach of such scum,we would like to beleive the terrorists don't have that power.




rulemylife -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:27:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

The Germans actually treated our prisoners well in both world wars, as well as Italy in the second.


Um, no...

My 84 year old dad just called a bullshit on this.  His cousin was a prisoner of war in Germany.  He was captured and beaten, and when he finally made it back home, he weighed all of 85 pounds.  He didn't go over there looking like a skeleton who could barely walk, and died soon after coming back to the US.

So, the myth that American POW's in WWII were basically treated gently and given room service at the Berlin Hilton is the biggest crock I think I've read thus far.

I'm guessing that you are not from a military background.  I could be wrong, but it seems that non-military familiar people tend to think that war is something fluffier than it is.

~ Red


Well you would be wrong in your guess, but I do have to love the condescension by those who somehow think being opposed to torture makes someone a pacifist.

As far as your Dad's cousin, I probably should have qualified my statement by saying relatively well, as opposed to the atrocities Japan imposed like the Baatan Death March.



World War II [/link]Germany and Italy generally treated prisoners from the [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations]British Commonwealth, France, the U.S. and other Western allies in accordance with the Geneva Convention (1929), which had been signed by these countries.[/link]

It is noteworthy that this also applied to [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew]Jewish
POWs wearing the British Army's uniform, who were treated on an equal footing with other British soldiers and excluded from application of the murderous Final Solution policies effected against virtually all other Jews who fell into Nazi hands. (For example, Major Yitzhak Ben-Aharon - later a prominent Israeli trade unionist and politician - was captured by the Germans at Greece in 1941 and underwent four years of captivity under fairly tolerable conditions).


Nazi Germany did not apply the same standard of treatment to non-Western prisoners, such as the Soviets, who suffered harsh conditions and died in large numbers while in captivity. The Empire of Japan also did not treat prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Moreover, according to a directive ratified on 5 August 1937 by Hirohito, the constraints of Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907) were explicitly removed on Chinese prisoners.[15]
[/link]
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war#cite_note-14]
. The main complaints of British, British Commonwealth, U.S., and French prisoners of war in German Army POW camps-especially during the last two years of the war-concerned the bare bones menu provided, a fate German soldiers and civilians were also suffering due to the blockade conditions.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:32:43 PM)

I'm really not following where this conversation is headed.  How on earth does the Nazi treatment of American POW's have anything to do with whether our government is permitted to torture captives?  We're skidding off the rails here.

For what it's worth, I'll state my reasons for opposing torture:

1.  It's unconstitutional.
2.  It violates international treaties of which we are signatories, including but not limited to the Geneva Conventions.
3.  It lowers our moral standing in the international community and thereby harms our national interest.
4.  It can only come back to haunt us when enemies retaliate against American prisoners.
5.  IT DOESN'T PRODUCE USEFUL INFORMATION ANYWAY.




rulemylife -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:35:50 PM)

It doesn't.

It was an off-hand comment I made that some took offense to.




Daddysredhead -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 9:02:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Daddy's Redhead yes you could be wrong.There is no family member requirement to understanding war and all its costs.One need not pay the bill directly to see the damage done.


I agree, but in my experience, those who have not had personal interaction with military personnel usually do not have the same opportunity to see things from that particular point of view.

That being said, I still stand by my statement that American prisoners were not treated with grace, dignity, and "fairness" by their German captors during WWII.

edited to add:  I just read rule's last post and would like to say that I never called those who are opposed to the horrors of war "pacifists."  I think most people would prefer that these things would never happen.  I know I would, and do not consider myself a pacifist, nor a war-monger.  I also agree that the Baatan Death March was horrific, and my father (who is sitting here talking to me about it) concurs.

LAM:  I think that those of us who commented on rule's statement were replying to that particular thing, in tandem with the instant thread topic of what was considered appropriate or acceptable in the article mentioned.  At least, that's what my comment was relating to.




slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 9:08:56 PM)

And I stand by my beleif that we should aspire to uphold our values and abide by our Constitution ....rather than take our cues from others....whether that be Japanese or German Prisoner of war camps...or terrorist thugs.




Daddysredhead -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 9:19:56 PM)

Slvemike, I respect your belief and would like to think that we can lead by example.  In a perfect world, that might be the case.  Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and at times, a battle has to be treated like a street fight.  It doesn't make it right, but sometimes, necessary.




slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 9:29:28 PM)

Street fight away...when in battle,but once you have taken prisoners do not trade your humanity so cheaply.
And we are selling it cheaply when we engage in this nonsense...torture does not yield actionable intelligence.
Though it is a hell of a propaganda win to our enemies.




Owner59 -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 9:33:46 PM)

Daddy`RH..

Did you know that one of the most strident opponents of torture is the military`s leadership, rank and file?





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