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Cap and Trade - 4/26/2009 5:18:07 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		Just curious as to the general thoughts on the legislation under consideration.

There's a lot of fear running around that some areas of the country are going to be facing increased power rates if we implement a cap and trade system. I personally don't like the carbon credit bullshit myself. It is nothing more than a way to assuage guilt while continuing to do the things one preaches need to stop.

Some on the story here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090426/ap_on_go_co/us_gore_v_gingrich;_ylt=AneFEb9jGVctxjG6gqv9llEEtbAF

Gore seems... particularly arrogant in that recap. Maybe that's just my impression though. Like most things in life, I find areas I can agree with him, and areas where I think his stance is one where he is quite willing for others to suffer as long as he does not.

So do we need it? If so, why? Is a cap and trade system better than simply renovating older plants with new technology to reduce said emissions? Again, if so, why? In the promise of no new taxes on the less fortunate, is a cap and trade system simply a matter of swapping dollars from one barrel to the next in order to get the money anyway in one form or another?

Is enacting legislation that will increase prices on some in an already battered economy that has fewer people working anyway, a good thing?


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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/26/2009 7:48:09 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Cap and trade is an atttempt to incentivize the upgrading of old facilities, which the anti regulation folks insist is better than simply requiring those old dirty plants to modernize. The theory is the really dirty ones will shutter or upgrade their pollution controsl while the marginal ones will buy the carbon credits from cleaner producers until the cost of upgrading comes down or the cost of the credits goes up.

I think it is a reasonable solution to an unreasonable argument. I personally favor no exceptions regulation of emmissions with a progressively higher standard phasing in over a 5 or 10 year period. The polluters have known for many years that they needed to clean up their emmissions but they haven't while still making hefty profits. That they only invest in their businesses when forced to do so makes me entirely unsympathetic to their sufferings. I also favor a nationwide ban on any electrical rate increase until company profits are down to less than 2% of earnings as proven by outside audit.

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/26/2009 2:15:16 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Cap and Tdade will probably not pass as it is currently written. It will put a heavy financial burden on states that have a lot of industry. Somme have estimated that electric rates will double for some companies who are forced to but 'credits'. Even the democrats are backing away from cap and trade, including our own very liberal Gov. Doyle here in Wisconsin.  

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/26/2009 5:12:00 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Cap and trade is first about a profit. In this case for the coal plant tech. industry area and then as yet another stream of cash flow...called taxes. This is also designed to allow some to tranfer carbon for a price...not reducing overall output.

To keep prices lower while minimizing coal effluent, it would be wiser just to force them all to upgrade and let demand set the price.

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/27/2009 11:44:39 PM   
gman992


Posts: 120
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		All I can say is that for those coal miners in West Virginia and Pennsylvania who voted for Obama even when he said that is going to destroy America' s coal industry, I hope you do lose your job.

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/27/2009 11:52:56 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

All I can say is that for those coal miners in West Virginia and Pennsylvania who voted for Obama even when he said that is going to destroy America' s coal industry, I hope you do lose your job.


Why?


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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/28/2009 12:24:40 AM   
gman992


Posts: 120
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Elections have consquences! If you are going to vote for someone who says that he is going to throw you out of job, well then, you deserve the man you vote for. What did Michigan Democrat Dingell call it--a great big tax?

< Message edited by gman992 -- 4/28/2009 12:26:40 AM >

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/28/2009 6:00:39 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

All I can say is that for those coal miners in West Virginia and Pennsylvania who voted for Obama even when he said that is going to destroy America' s coal industry, I hope you do lose your job.

Oh I agree. Just like it killed the gas industry to remove the lead oh, and killed the paint industry removing lead there too. Let's not forget how and we all know how there simply is no water...it having to be clean and all. I just can't afford to pay that penny for 5+ gals anymore.

Could take the flouride out though but then how would they make such a profit on something so unecessary.

Yea, I personally like acid rain. It tastes good and soon will short'n the job of repainting my car.

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/28/2009 6:09:31 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10540
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

Elections have consquences! If you are going to vote for someone who says that he is going to throw you out of job, well then, you deserve the man you vote for. What did Michigan Democrat Dingell call it--a great big tax?

Hey, that's been proven a winner and a real profit center...to throw people out of jobs, which is the MAIN MO of corporate America.

We could all go be investment bankers on wall street and pay only 15%. What a deal !!

Course Obama will do no such thing...the capitalist will because he's greedy and that greed extends to spewing acid rain. Ya know...phophorous, sulphur and carbo monoxide into our air so there is no expense to clean it out.

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RE: Cap and Trade - 4/28/2009 6:33:46 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Cap and Trade seems to create a financial business which makes the bankers looking for work happy.  It's a complex system and will therefore be gamed.  It hasn't done brilliantly in Europe- there's been a lot of money made, but not really a lot of technology development and installation.

I must admit- I favor a much simpler carbon tax which will be assessed at the source.  It's much easier to track and implement and will provide clear incentives for industries to either modernize or shutter plants. 

A few other points-

1)  There are a bunch of separate regulations concerning emissions.  AFAIK- what's happened with existing coal fired plants is that older plants remain in service because the permitting process has become extremely cumbersome for new plants.
2)  I'm not so sure that newer plants will actually emit less CO2- but they should have reduced particulates and do a better job with things likes SOx, NOx, and heavy metals.  Our plants are actually pretty good compared to the rest of the world in terms of efficiency- i.e. energy output for energy input.  China's building a lot of coal plants (effectively one a week) but they tend to be lower in efficiency.
3)  Manufacturing in this country has become less energy intensive- it uses less electricity to make a product.  We've had artificially subsidized and stabilized electric rates- it's time we let people know that their utility bill may go up, but their should be some reductions in costs of things like health care.
4)  While I hope that coal mining does become a thing of the past, there's no reason we can't create new jobs for the miners out of work.  We need to build more wind turbines (a lot of the places where coal is mined has good wind and solar potential) and a grid to let them send power to where it's needed.  We need solar installers, and people who can do geothermal installations too.


Sam

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