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IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/28/2009 3:18:33 PM

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A hundred billion a year folks.

Think that might help out with the economy a little?

I don't think this money hidden in offshore accounts is going to be "trickling down" anytime soon

IRS says set to pursue "other banks" on tax evasion

"In the U.S., we're losing about $100 billion a year, because of tax evasion and other abusive practices," Robert Roach, counsel and chief investigator for the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, said at the Miami conference.

IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats

The Internal Revenue Service, widening its investigation of offshore private banking beyond Swiss giant UBS AG, is preparing to take action against other offshore banks in a bid to force them to identify U.S. taxpayers with undisclosed foreign accounts, according to an IRS agent.

IRS agent Daniel Reeves -- who is a key investigator in the UBS case that is shaking the foundations of Swiss banking secrecy -- made the extraordinary disclosure during a presentation at the OffshoreAlert Financial Due Diligence Conference in Miami Beach Monday.

''We have identified other offshore banks that promote tax avoidance,'' Reeves told the group. 'We are developing additional `John Doe' summonses on some of those banks.''

When it seeks a ''John Doe'' summons, the IRS presents evidence to a federal judge, asserting that unidentified U.S. taxpayers are using an institution to hide assets and evade taxes. If the judge agrees to issue the summons, the IRS can force the institution to disclose customers' names.

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/28/2009 3:20:18 PM

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Leave these poor people and their dough alone, rule. Are you a communist or sumfink

?

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/28/2009 9:27:02 PM

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There is no law stating that anyone must pay taxes,,,, BUT, and this is a big BUT.

If you operate within a corporate shell provided by US law you should be paying. If your well being depends upon enforcement of intellectual rights, such as copyrights and patents, you should be paying. If a significant amount of your income comes from US tax dollars you should be paying.

But that's not me, nor a couple of others I know who no longer pay. The government does nothing to help us earn, in fact quite the opposite. I am completely ready for my day in court if and when it ever happens, and one has already gone through the process. They will never bother him again, and I saw the letter from the IRS stating that fact.

However when I see a company like Haliburton moving to Dubai, my blood wants to boil. A rock star or movie actor is enabled by intellectual property laws to make money, many times very good money. When you get a slice of the pie in this manner, you should regurgitate your fair share. Actually if I held patents and was paid royalties, I would deem myself a payer, but if that ever happened I would have to do it without signing a 1040. The rest of what I make is none of their business. Luckily I hold no patents or such, so it is unlikely that I would ever have this dilemma.

And I really don't claim to pay no taxes. Every day it is two packs of cigarettes at six bucks almost each. That is around ten bucks a day, or $3,650 a year. That is more than alot of people pay in income tax. People who make $40K-45K a year would be paying about that much. So I don't feel guilty using their roads, bridges and other infrastructure.

So with my comment aside, I will now address the OP, about offshore accounts somehow getting people out of taxes.

I don't see it, but then I do not exist in that world. How can simply moving the money out indemnify one from paying ? If they collected the money here there is a record, and those records are processed by the IRS corp. and they pay based on that. Who cares where the money went ? You collected, get your deductions out and pay up. Unless these people are playing a game with which I am unfamiliar, like making these offshore deposits into deductions somehow. It is illegal to do that and illegal to hide income, when you are rerquired to pay taxes. And they are. Whether I am or not, they are. Now you made this much money, these are your deductions. This minus that, send the result to the tax tables and you pay this amount that it says.

How does an offshore account affect that ? It shouldn't, by any stretch of logic I can grasp.

I have been involved in alot of things, but I admit that the finer aspects of the finances of large corporations and bigwigs is not something with which I am familiar. Your income is your income, now are they considering offshore accounts an investment and trying to tax any gains from what would amount to currency speculation ? Or is ther considerable interest being paid. If it is a foreign entity paying that interest, operating wholly under the law of another country, to me that raises the question of whether the US government even has the right to tax those specific earnings.

I admit it when I am wrong and I admit it when I don't know. If someone could enlighten me I would appreciate it. One other thing, tax shelters. How the heck does one make money by losing money ? This is another thing I just don't understand. But then this subject was never my field of endevor, and I never really needed to know. Maybe Merc would come in handy here, I think he has been alot closer to these things than I ever was. (sick grammar, sorry)

If I were to be enlightened in these matters, being a problem solver I might ne able to come up with an easy and effective solution. Corporations should pay taxes, the little Man should not. Corporations take advantage of governments, laws and treaties to survive and prosper, the little Man is afforded no such accomodation. So who should be paying ?

T

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/28/2009 9:41:22 PM

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Counting the minutes before a status quo defender tries to cut you down to size.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/28/2009 9:43:09 PM

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Hello; Now how can ANYONE just not pay their taxes? If you do not file...the IRS is on your door step, and takes what they will, seizes your bank accounts, property to settle the tax you should have paid. I've heardall this No Law bullshit for years on end...yet, the IRS is there, every year....don't pay, imprisonment, fines, interest, seisure of property and a host of other persecutions etc.

So, tell me, what law says you don't have to pay your taxes. I'm talking income tax here, not the sales tax.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/28/2009 11:52:25 PM

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And this is a surprise because?

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(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 12:14:03 AM

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ie, if I can call you that for short, it is a complicated process.

The only plan that works well is one published by "Start Freedom Project" years ago and I only have it on paper. It contains all the legal references necessary to become a non-taxpayer, and I have not really seen anything else work. It gets very complicated when you still want to have a driver's license, a passport or a bank account. There are certain things you must never sign, certain things you must never do, ever. This is because when you go through the process, you accuse the IRS corrp (yes they are incorporated in Delaware, I have copies of the papers) of fraud and challenge their jurisdiction. The first thing to realize is that the 1040 form is not a reciept, nor anything less than a contract. You MUST not file then, and in today's day and age that means no stimulus check. But my buddy who makes around a quarter mil a year has saved much more by simply not paying. And they know right where he is.

He showed me a paper he got from the IRS that confirmed that he was a non-taxpayer under section something or other (808 comes to mind but I can't be sure). This is using a loophole that was put in place for international arms dealers and their ilk. It is a complex process and must be done right, there is no second chance. And like I said, there are certain things you must never do again in life. For the rest of your life. You see as the law stands you are not born into paying taxes, you sign into it voluntarily. This creates the fraud. There is an extensive list of things to not do, but it is better to understand the root of it than to memorize all of the do nots.

We have the evidence in their own documents, but anyone who does this must represent themselves pro se, and therefore must be educated in these matters, all the way down to Robert's Rules Of Order. They say he who represents himself has a fool for a lawyer, but that does not apply here because no lawyer will do this for you. They would be quickly disbarred.

My buddy who did this, he is quite happy with his education at this point. Although he did some time in jail because they caught him with about a dozen pot plants in a high tech grow room, hydroponics and all, he beat them at their own game on appeal. He is actually acquitted now not just released. They caught him red handed and he is preparing to sue them. He fired the lawyers and took matters into his own hands. He is not sorry.

So a nickel pinching corporation in Deleware is nothing to him. They probably started with $500 capitalisation. He no longer fears them or the government.

But that is not to say that it is easy, nor that it is for everyone. Some people simply can't, for others it would not be advantageous, and so forth. It is best if you are in business for yourself, and have no problems already, like child support, big hospital bills, things like that. I think it took him about a year to learn before instigating the process. Seems like time well spent actually, but again it is not for everyone. I handle my affairs differently because my situation is different. If you can't you can't, that's all there is to it. It might take some time to even determine that. Let's put it this way, if you get a check in the mail every month, no matter what the source, there is an 80% chance you can't do it.

T

(in reply to ienigma777)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 8:40:14 AM

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It`s simple.

Instead of having a HQ in the states,a corp will setup an "office" on say the Cayman Islands.

All the money/accounts receivables go there,to Cayman Island banks and are taxed at only a fraction of what a corp would pay here.That`s where the term "off-shore accounts" comes from.

The money sits there out of reach while the corp uses our country`s recourses/infrastructures/municipal services/consumer base and takes and takes from it,but doesn`t have to pay for those things like we do(the taxpayer) or give back to it.

All the things we pay taxes and fees for,roads/Bridges/tunnels/sea and airports/canals,oversite and regulation,telecommunication and power lines,police/fire/city services etc all make the economy we have possible.

Without those basic things we pay taxes for,the economy and society wouldn`t function.

Infrastructures and our health/safety protection systems didn`t just appear one day.We as a 1st world country require a hospital system,a police force,an army/navy,roads that are safe and bridges that don`t fail.All that costs money.

But corporations that use our system and make a profit from it but don`t pay taxes, are cheating all of us.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/29/2009 8:46:24 AM >

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 9:23:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ienigma777

Hello; Now how can ANYONE just not pay their taxes? If you do not file...the IRS is on your door step, and takes what they will, seizes your bank accounts, property to settle the tax you should have paid. I've heardall this No Law bullshit for years on end...yet, the IRS is there, every year....don't pay, imprisonment, fines, interest, seisure of property and a host of other persecutions etc.

So, tell me, what law says you don't have to pay your taxes. I'm talking income tax here, not the sales tax.

Usually, people who take this position are relying on arguments advanced by (what are commonly referred to as) "tax protestors." As much as one may agree with the underlying premises, people are going to prison left and right for refusing to pay taxes on these theories.

This is a really common one ("pure trusts") that a lot of people have gone to prison for:

http://www.quatloos.com/taxscams/contrusts.htm

(in reply to ienigma777)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 9:51:16 AM

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This is NOT any kind of trust. And I have warned that it is not easy, and sets certain limitation for the rest of your life.

I have seen many of these schemes and I know most of them do not work. Only certain things work.

T

(in reply to shannie)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 10:56:00 AM

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I don't agree with the underlying premises and think people who refuse to pay taxes SHOULD go to prison. Law-abiding citizens have to pay for government services, and "tax protestors" don't? How does that work? Why should I be paying to send some tax cheat's kids to school?

quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

As much as one may agree with the underlying premises, people are going to prison left and right for refusing to pay taxes on these theories.

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 1:09:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I don't agree with the underlying premises and think people who refuse to pay taxes SHOULD go to prison. Law-abiding citizens have to pay for government services, and "tax protestors" don't? How does that work? Why should I be paying to send some tax cheat's kids to school?

No, no. The premise (as I understand it) has nothing to do with "tax cheats" getting some benefit that the rest of the citizens wouldn't get. It's that federal government has no right to impose and collect an income tax, at all. But as I was saying, none of the tax protesters have had success with that argument, no matter its (arguable) philosophical merit.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 1:22:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

No, no. The premise (as I understand it) has nothing to do with "tax cheats" getting some benefit that the rest of the citizens wouldn't get. It's that federal government has no right to impose and collect an income tax, at all. But as I was saying, none of the tax protesters have had success with that argument, no matter its (arguable) philosophical merit.

But isn't that the underlying philosophy of most tax cheats, that the government has no right to take their money or is taking too much of their money?

(in reply to shannie)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 6:13:31 PM

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Considering that the Sixteenth Amendment grants Congress the power to collect income tax, I'm having a hard time seeing any philosophical merit to the "tax protestor" position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

The premise (as I understand it) has nothing to do with "tax cheats" getting some benefit that the rest of the citizens wouldn't get. It's that federal government has no right to impose and collect an income tax, at all. But as I was saying, none of the tax protesters have had success with that argument, no matter its (arguable) philosophical merit.

(in reply to shannie)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 6:38:57 PM

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It doesn't have any legal or philosophical merit.

Other than if you consider the philosophy of "taxes suck" to have merit. Which, while everyone will agree on that, those same people who see the services they depend on lost, will be the first to complain.

Here's some other tax protest justifications:

Tax Protest Movement -- Extremism in America
As the tax protest movement grew rapidly in popularity during the 1970s, arguments involving the 13th Amendment, the Fifth Amendment and Federal Reserve Notes were joined by many other novel theories.

The most popular tax protest arguments over the past several decades include the following: a requirement to file tax returns violates First Amendment freedom of speech protections; the tax laws only apply to residents of limited areas like Washington, D.C., or federal territories; the tax laws apply only to federal employees; income taxes are voluntary; income taxes are dependent upon a contractual arrangement between an individual and the government; the 16th Amendment was not lawfully ratified, because different states had slight differences in the punctuation, etc., of their individual ratifications (popularized by Bill Benson and Martin "Red" Beckman in their book The Law That Never Was) ; the 16th Amendment was not lawfully ratified, because Ohio was not legally a state at the time it ratified the amendment; the Internal Revenue Code was not "positive law"; the Internal Revenue Service is not a legitimate government agency; wages do not qualify as "taxable income"; "sovereign citizens" are exempt from income tax.

All of these arguments have been declared frivolous by the courts -- usually repeatedly -- but are used again and again by tax protesters; some fall in and out of style. When a tax protest argument fails in court, the response among tax protesters is typically not to conclude that the argument was erroneous but rather to assume that the judge was wrong, corrupt or deliberately misinterpreting the law.

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 11:01:25 PM

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OK people, the edumacation - lesson one.

There is only one way it works.

There is no law stating that a Citizen must pay income tax. I challenge all to come up with the statute, because it does not exist. Now in this contry you must be charged with a crime to go to jail, and if the statute does not exist that is impossible.

Next they will throw IRS code at you, however the IRS is a private corporation in Deleware, and absolute proof of that can be had by sending that state office the appropriate fees for CERTIFIED copies of those incorporation documents. I was not born into a corporation. Corporate code does not equal law, and this shoots down their jurisdiction.

That is one method. Another I have already mentioned. There is another but it is for people with their feet in the soup pot already and it involves a jury trial so I don't recommend going that far. It is estimated that some 20,000 people use these methods, with success, however it is not a cakewalk. You have to know how to handle the courts, how to make them vulnerable to embarrassment in some cases. You need to think on your feet, and actually in some cases be a better lawyer than a professional lawyer. And one little slipup in your paperwork can blow your case. I did not say it was easy, in fact I gave fair warning that it is quite the opposite.

I know it does work, there is no doubt. But ideally you are the owner of a sole proprietorship and making between $200K and $700K per year. It does not work for everyone, and even if it did, it wouldn't be worth the trouble for many. It is only when the savings add up to more than it costs in time and trouble. That can be hard to assess. How much are you paying and how important is it to you ? That is the question.

I hope I have made it clear - it DOES work, but there is a veey good reason why everybody isn't doing it, and wouldn't even if they knew how. It's not only that certain people can't, it's also that there are many who actually shouldn't. If anyone tells you that everybody should, blow them off. The people who know what they are doing won't say that.

That's all I care to say on the matter right now.

T

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/29/2009 11:42:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK people, the edumacation - lesson one.

There is only one way it works.

There is no law stating that a Citizen must pay income tax. I challenge all to come up with the statute, because it does not exist. Now in this contry you must be charged with a crime to go to jail, and if the statute does not exist that is impossible.

U.S.C. 26

quote:

Next they will throw IRS code at you, however the IRS is a private corporation in Deleware, and absolute proof of that can be had by sending that state office the appropriate fees for CERTIFIED copies of those incorporation documents. I was not born into a corporation. Corporate code does not equal law, and this shoots down their jurisdiction.

The Internal Revenue Service is a part of the US Department of the Treasury. That some scam artist incorporated a corp with teh name "IRS" in Delaware is irrelevant.

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/30/2009 6:20:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It doesn't have any legal or philosophical merit.

Other than if you consider the philosophy of "taxes suck" to have merit. Which, while everyone will agree on that, those same people who see the services they depend on lost, will be the first to complain.

.....

All of these arguments have been declared frivolous by the courts -- usually repeatedly -- but are used again and again by tax protesters; some fall in and out of style. When a tax protest argument fails in court, the response among tax protesters is typically not to conclude that the argument was erroneous but rather to assume that the judge was wrong, corrupt or deliberately misinterpreting the law.

Legal merit and philosophical/moral merit are two different things. The US Supreme Court decided that the eminent domain power can be used to take private property and give/sell it to corporations. So that's the end of that legal question, for now. If you try to fight against that position in a lower court, your position will be deemed "legally frivolous." But the argument against it still has philosophical merit, to many.

And there are arguments against taxing a man's labor other than "taxes suck" (I have never heard anyone advance that argument, in fact). There are many things to tax, and many ways to raise revenue, besides taxing the labor of a man's shoulders.

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/30/2009 6:27:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Considering that the Sixteenth Amendment grants Congress the power to collect income tax, I'm having a hard time seeing any philosophical merit to the "tax protestor" position.

The argument (one of many) is that "income" did not encompass "wages from labor."

But yes, this argument is absolutely dead in the water, legally.

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RE: IRS agents hunting offshore tax cheats - 4/30/2009 7:45:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Considering that the Sixteenth Amendment grants Congress the power to collect income tax, I'm having a hard time seeing any philosophical merit to the "tax protestor" position.

The argument (one of many) is that "income" did not encompass "wages from labor."

But yes, this argument is absolutely dead in the water, legally.

Which is quite obviously not true. Simply reading the various senator's speeches during the ratification debate makes that clear even if you didn't know anything at all about the reason the 16th was put forward in the first place.

(in reply to shannie)

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