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The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 4:02:41 AM   
FirmhandKY


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This article gives some thoughtful insight into the difficulties of the entire "torture debate" and the problems with some people's desire to prosecute Bush admin officials over the subject.

I'm not sure that the cry of "hypocrisy" is as accurate, as this is a perfect example of trying to use the law for pre-determined outcomes over letting the chips fall where they may, but I also think that "hypocrisy" should certainly be considered.

In brief, the Holder DOJ is adopting and using the Bush admin's definition of "torture" in an attempt to achieve another, specific legal outcome in a different case, while at the exact same time, denying the Bush admin's definition to achieve a different outcome, in a different case.

The article is from the *gasp* National Review, and therefore I suspect will not even be read for content by some, but it is well referenced in supporting documents and news articles.

 The Justice Department’s Torture Hypocrisy
Investigate Bush lawyers’ torture analysis one day, cite it favorably the next.
May 6, 2009 1:30 PM

The Obama Justice Department is engaged in the worst type of hypocrisy. Its Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) is nearing completion of a 220-page report which will recommend that Attorney General Eric Holder refer former Bush administration lawyers to their state bar disciplinary committees over purported ethical lapses in the legal analysis those lawyers drafted to justify harsh interrogation techniques that critics — including President Obama himself — have labeled “torture.” The draft report, which is not public, was nevertheless reported on last night by the Washington Post and New York Times — apparently based on leaks from the Justice Department (in an ethics case, no less). Such bar referrals could result in profound professional and financial damage, potentially including disbarment — all due to actions the lawyers took in defense of the United States after the 9/11 attacks.

Yet, even as the OPR report is being finalized, even after Obama declared himself open to the possibility of criminal prosecution against the Bush officials, and even after Holder promised to conduct an investigation that would “follow the evidence wherever it takes us, follow the law wherever that takes us” (emphasis added), the Obama Justice Department is relying on the very same legal analysis in order to urge a federal appeals court to reject torture claims. In fact, as the Obama Justice Department argued to that appeals court a little over a week ago, the torture law analysis in question has already been adopted by another federal appeals court.


Firm



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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 4:11:06 AM   
FirmhandKY


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And this is pretty interesting as well:

The Torture Follies — Just When You Thought It Couldn't Get Worse ...

It appears John Yoo cannot be disciplined or disbarred for writing those memos, even if the Office of Professional Responsibility says it has evidence he should be.

That’s because OPR’s five-year investigation—carefully timed for release only as Bush was leaving the White House and Obama was coming in—dragged on too long. As a result of that timing, OPR blew the deadline for referring possible misconduct allegations against Yoo.

Firm

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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 6:25:10 AM   
DarkSteven


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The Office of Professional Responsibility?  Never heard of them.


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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 7:06:16 AM   
Sanity


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Sounds like a refugee from another current political thread to me... 

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The Office of Professional Responsibility?  Never heard of them.



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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 1:46:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The Office of Professional Responsibility?  Never heard of them.



Steve,

It's explained in the article.

It's a section of the DOJ.  Basically, it seems to be their "ethics" division.

Firm


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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 1:52:27 PM   
Raechard


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So leaving the law aside you are comparing the judgment to deport a Nazi to Germany against that of abuse by CIA interrogators? The UN convention against torture that these laws were derived from are far more clear with respect to pain/suffering from normal legal processes. Anyone could claim they would be tortured to prevent deportation/extradition if this wasn't outlined.

quote:


Article 1. 1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.


< Message edited by Raechard -- 5/7/2009 1:58:04 PM >


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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 2:12:33 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

So leaving the law aside you are comparing the judgment to deport a Nazi to Germany against that of abuse by CIA interrogators? The UN convention against torture that these laws were derived from are far more clear with respect to pain/suffering from normal legal processes. Anyone could claim they would be tortured to prevent deportation/extradition if this wasn't outlined.


The fact is that on one hand, legal reasoning is being proposed in one case for a certain end, and the exact same reasoning is being rejected in another case, for a certain end.

Forget what the cases are.  The fact is that this is a situation of a government talking out of both sides of its mouth, in order to achieve its political agenda.

Where is the "justice" in that?

Firm


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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 4:07:13 PM   
rulemylife


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The Demjanjuk case has been going on for over thirty years.

He was originally charged as a guard at the Treblinka death camp known as "Ivan the Terrible".

After years of deportation hearings he was extradited to Israel and received a death sentence. 

After the Soviet Union fell documents were released proving he was not the sadistic Ivan the U.S. government claimed and which he was convicted as.  Subsequently he was released by an Israeli appeals court.

Since then, the Justice Department has basically waged war on this man, with new theories being presented every other year and being shot down in the courts.

This is a case that has lived on through six different administrations, from Carter to Obama.

While I do see the irony in the argument they are trying to make, it has to be remembered this has been a Justice Department vendetta for many years, regardless of who has occupied the White House.

Demjanjuk case chronology 

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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/7/2009 6:43:36 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Great post, rule.

I remember the Demjanjuk case from decades ago, but didn't realize it was still going on.

Being involved in the justice system for that long is hell.

Firm


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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/8/2009 2:09:51 PM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The Office of Professional Responsibility?  Never heard of them.


Think IAB (Internal Affairs) for DOJ "police" agencies.
j

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RE: The Complications of Torture and the Law. - 5/8/2009 3:20:03 PM   
shannie


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quote:


The fact is that on one hand, legal reasoning is being proposed in one case for a certain end, and the exact same reasoning is being rejected in another case, for a certain end.


The basic premise advanced in the Demjanjuk case (as I understand it) is that torture, under the Convention against Torture, does not include the suffering that will result from his imprisonment due to age, poor health, poor prison conditions, abuse by other prisoners, etc. 

(There probably wouldn't have been many signatories under a definition that would have forced progressive countries to offer refuge to everyone facing a prison term in a third world country.)

The Yoo/Bybee memos didn't advance the same premise/argument at all, not in any form I could recognize anyway.


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