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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 9:10:04 AM   
slavekal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

Thank you, Underground.  For whatever reason, some people won't get off the idea that I was saying a domme should pander of perform for slave to provide service.  I am not going to respond to those comments anymore.  They have been addressed clearly and completely.  Some people either cannot or will not understand plain English.  There is a reason that some ladies have slaves who can't wait for the chance to be of service to her (Ms. Mlicious is one of these women).  And there are many dominant women who can't figure out why they can't find quality slaves. 
There is a book called "Mama Gena's Owner's and Operator's Guide to Men".  It is not a fetish BDSM book.  But it teaches women how to understand men.  Mama Gena teaches women that men really do want to serve them, and how to enjoy being served.  I gave it to Ms. Mlicious years ago.  She calls it her Bible.  Any time she feels off her square, she goes back to it.  And it really works for her.  She has no shortage of men who want to serve her.  And she meets a lof them in "vanilla" settings.  She knows how to make men want to serve her.  Never mind that little glitch on Sunday.


I have no shortage of men wanting to serve me.  I have no shortage of vanilla men wanting to work for me, or serve me.  But I don't stoop to the level of performing for them like a dog hoping for treats, just because I realize how men are wired, and know that if I behave in a certain manner that will get them to do what I want, because I am allowing them to sexually objectify me. No thanks!  As I said, I'd rather just PAY them to do hard labor - then there is no question who is performing for whom.

Fortunately, I find myself "in femdom mode" in most situations when it's fun and playful and there's a good vibe all around.  When I am likely to shut down is when I feel like men are waiting for me to put on a show or "get femdom on their ass" before they will respond.  These men are shown the door. In essence, my authentic femdom side responds to men who are authentic subs; not when I get a vibe that they will only be submissive to me when I sexually excite them.  In a mutually romantic relationship there's compromise; otherwise, unless it's been agreed upon in advance, I'm not a performing poodle for horny guys.

"Managing expectations" is also the responsibility of the femdom, and in this case, expectations were obviously not managed.

Akasha



What are you talking about???  I cannot possibly make this point any more clear.  I NEVER suggested that a woman perform or put on a show.  How many times have I said exactly that?  In so many words?  And I certainly did not make any comparisons to a lady and a dog.  You are reading things in that are just not there.

And Venatrix, maybe this is a reading comprehension problem.  But I already said that a woman has a right to behave any way she wants.  And I also said that she can pay for labor if she wants or needs to.  Why you felt the need to repeat that, I don't know.  Of course, anyone can behave any way he/she wants.  But, once again...you can't expect a man to respond in a submissive manner if you act like his buddy.  I don't know what your problem is with that.  But this has nothing to do with a woman putting on a show.  Actually, all that "one of the guys" stuff is the affectation.

< Message edited by slavekal -- 5/19/2009 9:16:01 AM >


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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 9:35:56 AM   
Venatrix


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No, Kal, I don't think I have any problem understanding English.  I just see someone who dug himself into a hole that made him look like a complete arse and is now desperately trying to get himself out of it.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 9:43:16 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Knowing MsM, I am having a hard time picturing her doing manual labour...  so this was some kind of "one time incident", and you are making this big a deal of it?

I understand about men needing some kind of motivation to do work, but if she was not in the mood to be MsBitchForeman, then that's her prerogative.  If that crew wasn't willing to come back, then the operative word is NEXT! 

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 9:58:01 AM   
Lockit


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I think part of this is in a title if I am getting anything that is being said.  The way I am seeing it is that some men submissive or not need to be appreciated somehow... they need a response.  Some will feed off of different things.  Different strokes for different folks basically.  They don't get fed, they aren't going to have the desire to put anything into whatever it is.  I have vanilla men all around me if we want titles.  Whatever I am doing, whether it is appearance or attitude, these men are responding and I am actually watching them evolve around me because of how I am.  It comes naturally.  If it were forced... nothing would happen because I surely would not be interested.  It isn't a game.

I will consider what other's need, as I wish to be considered as well and nothing in life is for free in a sense.  The good will of a man will turn me on far more than someone who needs something to inspire his good will.  When I bake a cake for someone, I am not thinking of any pay off other than the smile on their face when they see what I have done and their enjoyment of my labors.  Sometimes it is as simple as that.  So we may do different things for one another... we both ought to be doing things for one another if there is an emotional bond.  Whether that be a hug or a deed, emotional or physical, we all need to give and receive.

This back and forth, keeping score... or having to act a certain way to get a certain reaction can become a burden and a distasteful one at that.   At that point I am shutting down and there will be no more from me... ever.

I had a submissive I wanted to do all sorts of things with.  He pushed... he expected... he hinted... he was not upfront.  Guess what he got?  Nothing... nothing at all.  Had he been honest about his needs, I would have seen to it that they were met because I loved him.  Not because it was expected but because I wanted to give to him.  Someone manipulating me shuts me down.  If they are real with me as I am with them, things typically go very well.  Hidden expectations or needs... thinking of roles and not of an actual knowledge of the person all becomes a game and I am not interested.

If I have to play a game to have service... bye bye.  This is why I won't easily slip into a quick arrangement of someone coming to service or do anything.  I have had guys come do things that expected nothing but a thank you.  I have had guys who came manipulating to get something from doing something and I was disgusted.  The same person with a foundation could work out just fine.  For me it is the foundation most often that makes whatever dynamic's of anything work.  To not have the foundation... it all boils down to work in an area I have no interest in.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:04:46 AM   
MsFlutter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

...Why not write a book called, "How to be a good Mistress and 
inspire your slaves, keep THEM happy, and keep good help!"


It might be a best seller.


MzMia - that is an EXCELLENT idea. I enjoyed his first book so much that I would definitely buy (working title) How to be a Good Mistress Kal - put me on the list and let me know when it is ready to proof ! 

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:07:15 AM   
undergroundsea


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Fast Reply

I don't think the intent is to make a big deal of the incident, but instead to use that incident as an example to convey a broader point about the psychology of service. I think there is potential for constructive discussion and for exchange of useful insights in each direction. I think the thread by Andalusite achieves the half about understanding the perspective from the dominant side. I think what SlaveKal and I are saying presents the perspective from the submissive side, and the best scenario is one that addresses both perspectives.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/19/2009 10:55:17 AM >

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:07:18 AM   
Lockit


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I don't want to be a good mistress.  I want to be a good Lockit... a good person.  Everything stems from there.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:08:18 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal
Thank you, Underground.  For whatever reason, some people won't get off the idea that I was saying a domme should pander of perform for slave to provide service.


That's because it is what you are saying, from their point of view, kal.  The reason that communication is impossible is not because they won't listen; it's because you won't listen, and no attempt is made to understand.

The problem is not just people "not understanding plain English".  The problem is that you and other men like you are insisting on a relationship paradigm that simply does not and cannot work for all dominant women.  The mode of power that your Mistress exercises is the Courtesan Model.  I have read your blog and posts quite thoroughly, and I understand that you love your Mistress deeply and that she is Mistress Right, so far as you are concerned.  She is capable of the sort of feminine power that has always been your dearest dream and your only conception of power for women.

And believe me--I get it.  I am familiar with the role.  The Courtesan is a woman of seductive beauty.  She exercises power solely through her body and the promise of access to it--the pleasure of seeing a glimpse of her shapely parts, of smelling her, tasting and touching her, and above all the pleasure of pleasing her.  All sensual women, including submissive women, can have a touch of the Courtesan to them, but a woman like your Mistress makes it into the throne by which she rules her world and the men in it.

Fine and dandy, needless to say.  I have no beef with dommes of this type and I am aware that they can live happy and fulfilling lives.  But it is not the life for me.  From my point of view, a Courtesan is always a hostage to the whims of men.  Try to wrap your head around this:  her way, and by extension your way, is not the only way.

There are other roles and other models for feminine power and authority.  I would agree with you happily if you were to say that men in our society are very, very well-trained to respond to the Courtesan.  I can even tell you why:  it's because ultimately, the real power of the relationship with a Courtesan always lies in their own hands.  A Courtesan is never more powerful than a man's lust for her.  Her only independence lies in her ability to find another man or men to seduce, if one stops wanting her.  If men someday begin to find her unattractive, if she loses her ability to perform sexually to their satisfaction, she is completely impotent.  There is nothing left.  Like the "slaves" you were describing in your posts, they wander off to find another woman who puts on a better show.  They feel nothing for her personally; she has power and worth only when she puts on a show.

I am not satisfied with this arrangement.  Many other dominant women are not satisfied with it either.  It could be because our sexuality simply doesn't flow on tap as readily as a natural Courtesan's does.  Personally, I could never in a million years sustain the sort of sexual antics that seem to come naturally to your Mistress, judging by your posts and blog.  I would find them exhausting, draining, and a colossal waste of my time and energy.

For some submissives, Sex is Power; they respond to the sexual attractiveness of their partner, and that is what inspires their submission.  This is a common mode for male submissives, although I have seen it in women as well.  However, there is another type of submissive:  for these, Power is Sexiness.  They respond to other aspects of personal power by finding someone sexually attractive because of them--physical strength, charisma, intelligence, wisdom, patience, wit, money etc. turn them on, make them see beauty in their dominant, and make them want to submit.  This mode is more common in women, but it is also sometimes seen in men, and it is the type of submission that I tend to connect with much better.

A woman like your Mistress can do well with submissives of the former type; she has the sexual energy to spare.  I do not.  I will never have the time, the energy or the inclination to prance around in high heels or "domme it up" in order to get housework done.  Quite honestly, I have better things to do, and the submissives who are attracted to a woman like me know that and love me for it.

I am not knocking you or your Mistress whatsoever.  But you will incur my hostility if you continue to insist that your way is the only way, and that all women are obligated to "put out" in Courtesan mode in order to inspire submission.  It is simply not true.


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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:08:24 AM   
Lockit


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Sea, doesn't what I say in my post address both sides?

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:09:55 AM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I don't want to be a good mistress.  I want to be a good Lockit... a good person.  Everything stems from there.


Once again, Lockit, you've nailed it.  I don't know about anyone else, but I don't need a guide to cookie-cutter domination.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:22:17 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
they need a response.  Some will feed off of different things.  Different strokes for different folks basically.  They don't get fed, they aren't going to have the desire to put anything into whatever it is. 


Yes, I agree with this point.

It is some form of engaging and giving to the dynamic. How this participation occurs will vary. In some cases, it might be to overcome societal conditioning and not say thank you when served a drink. It might simply be how instructions are spoken. To say, "I would like water," has a much different effect than to say, "whenever you get a chance, don't make a special trip, when you are going to the kitchen, would you please bring me some water?" What I attempt to refer to here is a D/s energy. For some, it is intead the thank you and smile. For some, it is to be given the opportunity to serve. For some it's a little of each.

I attended a presentation about service by Master Archer, also on this site. He gave an example that illustrates well the point about being given the opportunity to serve. He described a ritual where his slave would remove his boots. Initially, whenever she would do so, he would pull up his jeans to allow access to his boots. And one day, he left that task for her as well. That simple change had a much greater effect on her mindspace as a submissive, which I expect was for both having the opportunity to serve in yet another way, and for the expectation to be served.

It is not about doing tricks like a dog and if the point is being read that way, I don't think the point is being interpretted as intended.

One point I would like to add is that, as with most things, context matters. The point about feeding the motivation to serve matters most when the relationship is based on service only and has nothing else from which to draw. In other relationships, the point is still relevant with respect to how it contributes to the relationship.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/19/2009 10:30:49 AM >

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:25:19 AM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

I would agree with you happily if you were to say that men in our society are very, very well-trained to respond to the Courtesan.  I can even tell you why:  it's because ultimately, the real power of the relationship with a Courtesan always lies in their own hands.  A Courtesan is never more powerful than a man's lust for her.  Her only independence lies in her ability to find another man or men to seduce, if one stops wanting her.  If men someday begin to find her unattractive, if she loses her ability to perform sexually to their satisfaction, she is completely impotent. 


Oh, Shakti, I wish my mother had lived long enough to read these words.  Much of her life was dedicated to following this path and I'm convinced that it is why she spent a good portion of it being so unhappy.  She never learnt that a man's interest in a woman, when based on beauty and sex, is only temporary at best. 

The tenor of some of the posts in this thread bears out the validity of what you've written.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:25:48 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
Sea, doesn't what I say in my post address both sides?


It does indeed. I began to write that post prior to you had written yours :)

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:28:41 AM   
Lockit


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Sea, you actually prove my point.  In the example you give of Master Archer... who I respect... there is a foundation laid.  Without the foundation the inspiration and knowledge are limited unless you are putting everyone in the same little box and expecting them to respond the same way.

Someone might feel that not taking the pants off as a hindrence or extra work if their heart was in a different place.  Some want easy service basically handed to them.  Some want it hard and difficult or a challenge all the way.  One cannot know these things and be effective if they do not know the person or have some foundation.

To expect almost strangers to know how to feed a submissive, they must know THAT submissive, not submissive's in general.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:37:50 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
Without the foundation the inspiration and knowledge are limited unless you are putting everyone in the same little box and expecting them to respond the same way.


My philosophy is not that everyone should behave the same way, but instead that people enjoy service for different reasons and that for service to be rewarding, that particular reason should be touched.

As a corollarly, my philosophy is that service requires some participation from the dominant also. What form that participation takes varies. It could be to simply not pull up the jeans as boots are being removed.

Another point related to my philosophy is that that a dominant and a submissive enjoy service does not make them compatible in this regard, but intead the reasons behind the draw of each to service are what determine compatibility.

Based on this philosophy, it is fair of a domme to not do what she does not wish to do in order to receive service. However, it is also fair of a submissive to feel that a given experience was unsatisfying. In a relationship that is based on service only and only on the satisfaction that comes from service, the relationship will fail when the service is unsatisfying. In a relationship that is broader, the service will become an activity that competes against satisfaction in the overall mix of relationship satisfaction versus being an activity that instead contributes positively to the relationship satisfaction. The latter point is not a deal breaker and how much it matters or not varies from situation to situation.

If by your reference to foundation you mean that service is more meaningful in a broader relationship that has foundations beyond acts of service, I agree. However, there exist relationships that are based on service only for which this point is more critical. In relationships that have broader basis, this point can enable a dominant to change service from an activity that requires energy, to one that instead delivers energy and satisfaction, which also serves the dominant as it serves the relationship.

quote:

To expect almost strangers to know how to feed a submissive, they must know THAT submissive, not submissive's in general.


I agree. I will add that knowing the general range of motivations behind service helps to understand a given submissive. This general knowledge helps to decide what questions to ask to understand what portions of service submissive psychology apply to him.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/19/2009 11:15:01 AM >

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 10:48:43 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter
I enjoyed his first book so much that I would definitely buy (working title) How to be a Good Mistress Kal - put me on the list and let me know when it is ready to proof ! 


Indeed one source of useful information to a dominant is insights by submissives about submission.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 11:09:18 AM   
Venatrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Indeed one source of useful information to a dominant is insights by submissives about submission.



You are correct.  A book, however, is no substitute for involved discussions with a prospective submissive about what makes him tick.  A book might ultimately prove harmful, should the sub in question not meet the author's preconceived notions of what submission is all about, and if the dominant bases her approach on what she has read.

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 11:30:20 AM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
You are correct.  A book, however, is no substitute for involved discussions with a prospective submissive about what makes him tick.  A book might ultimately prove harmful, should the sub in question not meet the author's preconceived notions of what submission is all about, and if the dominant bases her approach on what she has read.


I agree. In my opinion both can be useful but I give greater value to the discussions with a submissive.

I think thoughts of others, of which books are simply vehicles, have potential to pass on insights. If I had unlimited time, I would read like a mad man. As it is, with the presence of CollarMe and the like, I do it infrequently. A book written for dominants might be useful in that it might help suggest what types of questions to ask, and what to do with answers obtained. How useful a book is to a given dominant depends each on the experience level of the dominant, how advanced or not are the topics covered in the book, and whether the author is a supermegagenius like me ;-) Indeed some books can send one down the wrong track if not balanced against one's own sensibility and perspectives of others. Thus, regardless of experience or content in book, I see a book as one source of information that is not the word of God (unless it is, you know, the bible or something). If someone new were asking for a book, my suggestion would be to read more than one and take portions of each with which one connects.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/19/2009 11:41:43 AM >

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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 11:58:06 AM   
BoiJen


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Knowing MsM...I can see her having a hard time not digging in like "one of the guys" when she feels she needs to be doing work. The Woman is an incredibly goal oriented individual and will get whatever she wants done done. One way or another.

That being said, she's also hesitant at times and slaveKal has to tap her shoulder and go "No, you will like it...I promise"...and that's a good thing for her because he knows her. He knows her like crazy. She sometimes needs to be coached and gently, respectfully prodded to try something new. What I think slaveKal is saying (cuz I can totally see it happening), is that the guys came over to be poked and prodded occassionally (not a quid pro quo thing) while they were doing their work. If MsM were to have come into their workspace and said something snappy twice in 8 hours of work it would have hit some nerves and sent them into a frenzy, for lack of a better word. And she could have done this all while continuing to do whatever else she wanted to do at the time, including work else where.

It's kinda like having an image in your head of driving a new car...it handles perfectly, it looks great inside and out, and it makes that pretty sound when it goes really fast. When all you get out of that ride is the interior look, you feel a little ripped off. Some s-types can cope with that kind of feeling after they've been in a relationship for a while or know the person(s) involved ...others ...most would hit the door saying "that shit ain't for me..". No one wants to go unappreciated.

It's not saying "dominate me this way, this time, dressed like this, and using this instrument" ...it's saying s-types sometimes need a little pat on the head after doing a lot of work. It's a small sign of appreciation that doesn't have the Domme committing to more than she wants but lets the s-type know their work was noticed. And I think everybody can agree that that's as important as an s-type's acknowledgement of the Domme's efforts to be "Dommely", again lack of a better word.

SlaveKal is an amazing servant to MsM and he's not going to have people who lack quality of personality doing work for her. Period. If he thought that any of the guys there was there expecting play for work on a quid pro quo basis, they wouldn't have made it past the door. What I think has happened on this thread is that slaveKal vented a feeling and some women personalized because of their own experience. This is one of those times where you kinda have to know the person involved to tell where they're coming from about something.

Just sayin...

boi
Future ruler of the Universe serving MsKitty
Silently plotting the revenge of the swine...
And I endorse this message


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RE: "Vanilla side"...what?...rant - 5/19/2009 12:20:10 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
If MsM were to have come into their workspace and said something snappy twice in 8 hours of work it would have hit some nerves and sent them into a frenzy, for lack of a better word.


I agree. The analogy I use is to compare submissive headspace to a flywheel. Little spins given periodically keep the flywheel spinning. In the absence of these spins, the flywheel comes to rest. A submissive can also try to give the flywheel these spins but it is not the same as when the dominant is also giving it these spins.

Another way to think of it is to consider a vanilla marriage. The marriage does not rest simply on exchanging vows. A healthy marriage has gestures that continue to express the relationship (kiss on the cheek in the morning, etc) and renew and remind each other of the relationship feeling.

In my opinion, what form this spin or this relationship expression to remind of the relationship feeling takes varies from person to person.

quote:

What I think has happened on this thread is that slaveKal vented a feeling and some women personalized because of their own experience. This is one of those times where you kinda have to know the person involved to tell where they're coming from about something.


I agree with this point also. Surely there are men who might have very elaborate expectations that are centered only on them. I expect that some interpretations taken in this thread might come from recalling experiences with such men.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/19/2009 12:23:37 PM >

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