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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 7:26:41 AM   
Owner59


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The relevance of the Graham notes is that the CIA claimed to have had meetings that never happened.Graham is known for taking meticulous notes.This guy makes notes about making notes.Literally jotting down things like "9:50 to 10:20 am,read paper,put on grey suit and ate brand w/ fruit for breakfast".Those notes are now in a university library.

It`s simple.The few folks Pelosi is talking about were bush officials, not the rank and file.  The distinctions are important.The POTUS runs CIA through appointees,like Penetta.They manage.The don`t do spy stuff themselves.The political appointees are different from the ranks, though they all work under the same name plate.  The CIA officials who helped bush mis-lead us in to Iraq ,  Sargent "slam dunk" and Kernel "cake walk" ,are not the same folks who bush scapegoated/passed blame to, when bush said Iraq was because of an "intelligence failure".  Pelosi and now Graham ,are talking about bush appointees,not the folks who were cheering Obama on his visit there.Pelosi is talking about the CIA officials who helped cheney divulge secrete/classified CIA information and the IDs of NOUC (non official under cover)CIA agents,not the agents,analysts and translators,the rank and file.  I think the only way to sort this out is to call cheney/bush/asshole`s bluff and have an investigation.  What I find interesting is all the energy and gyrations here.The smearing of Pelosi has a similar smelling stench to it.It smells an awful lot like the bullshit that got us here in the first place. 1st we had "we never tortured,,,honest,we don`t torture". Then we had "ok we did it but is worked and saved(as sanity said)untold numbers of lives". Then when we find out  that that`s bullshit and we get"Nancy said it was ok"...... Which is just more bullshit.This time, said while hiding behind the CIA . Pelosi also said there`s evidence that bush lied us into invading Iraq. I think it`s time we found out about that little ditty,the Iraq debacle. Time for a special prosecutor.Fuck the republican threats of retaliation if we do.That`s just criminals covering the backs of other criminals and a bluff in an effort to hide official misconduct. 
Again. I see Pelosi is up for an investigation and says ~bring it~.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/16/2009 7:40:18 AM >

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 7:35:03 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Despite the fact that I'm not a fan of the GOP, I'm not a fan of Peloosi either.  Orion's post is shocking because it shows a huge weakness of Pelosi: she does not work well with others.  Amazing as it sounds, she made her story and went public with it without checking with anyone even in her own party to see if they'd support it.  As Speaker, she's responsible for getting legislation passed by working with others.  She has no ability or desire to do that.



Sounds like you're saying her problem wasn't lying but not checking her lie with her colleagues.


If I had to rely on memory for something that critical, you bet I'd be checking my story with others.  And even if she is telling the unvarnished truth, HOW it gets presented is an issue as well.


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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 7:39:28 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`d say it`s time for an investigation!

Yeah Special Prosecutor!!

It`a obvious that it was bush admin officials at CIA who fibbed.

We need to see the transcripts.

We know that bush tried to destroy anti-torture memos.

Why wouldn`t they lie about this?


Lets waterboard them all.  That way we will get to the truth, maybe.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 7:44:51 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Or a forced, false confession.....

For neo-cons,either will do.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/16/2009 7:45:28 AM >

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 7:47:46 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Unable to quote your post O59 as something funky happened because I pulled up the original to quote, but you must have just edited to add something, so it has all this odd formatting crap in it. If I miss something, just let me know.

1) What was Pelosi's initial accusations about? The CIA or some Bush officials?

2) If her latest statement is a clarification, why wait until Panetta refutted her statements before clarifying? It makes it look like she is changing her story.

3) The President has warned against an investigation. What are your thoughts on that?

4) This particular issue is about Pelosi saying she was not informed, but the CIA saying she was. This isn't about investigating the original debacle of getting us into Iraq.



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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 7:49:08 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElitistBastard

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"In a testimony that could bolster Speaker Nancy Pelosi's claim that the CIA misled her during briefings on detainee interrogations, former Senator Bob Graham insisted on Thursday that he too was kept in the dark about the use of waterboarding, and called the agency's records on these briefings "suspect."

In an interview with the Huffington Post, the former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman said that approximately a month ago, the CIA provided him with false information about how many times and when he was briefed on enhanced interrogations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/14/graham-cia-gave-me-false_n_203683.html


Pray tell, let me see if I understand this clearly.

This government flunky claims that the Central Intelligence Agency dissembled to him how often they met with him and what they said to him?

This, peons, is just one example of why Democracy doesn’t work.

Graham is apparently a very consistent diarist. If he's saying he has no record of the two supposed briefings by the CIA then it is very possible that the CIA is lying.


At first Pelosi's critics pointed out the five stories and her inconsistent statements.  However, if you read the statements by an increasing number of republicans, they agree with her by saying that during Bush's term they were constantly misled by the CIA and that is why at times they looked like liars and civil rights anarchists. What did Churchill say--that the truth must be protected by a circle of lies?  The government has the lie part down, how do we find out the truth?

(Remember it was a CIA official who said "finding WMD will be a slam dunk.")


< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 5/16/2009 7:58:14 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 8:15:19 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Unable to quote your post O59 as something funky happened because I pulled up the original to quote, but you must have just edited to add something, so it has all this odd formatting crap in it. If I miss something, just let me know.

1) What was Pelosi's initial accusations about? The CIA or some Bush officials?

Blame Vista just got a new laptop.I think it`s that.Posts on other sites aren`t formating correctly.

2) If her latest statement is a clarification, why wait until Panetta refutted her statements before clarifying? It makes it look like she is changing her story.


 As far as I can tell,Panetta is staying out of it.He hasn`t refuted her.

3) The President has warned against an investigation. What are your thoughts on that?

 
 I think it`s getting to the point where there`s no choice.I see a back room power struggle going on,the torturers using the CIA for cover and Pelosi standing her ground.Someone`s not telling the truth.
 
It`ll be a special prosecutor (like the guy who did Plamegate,an honest republican)outside of the executive branch and congress.

4) This particular issue is about Pelosi saying she was not informed, but the CIA saying she was. This isn't about investigating the original debacle of getting us into Iraq.


 
I recall in her statement(which btw was upon returning from overseas w/ jet lag) that in addition to being mislead about the torture methods ,she was also mis-lead by bush about why we invaded Iraq.
 
I think we need to get to the bottom of that bit of skulduggery.





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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/16/2009 3:08:00 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
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Status: offline 		I know it is FOX news, but the same story is running on other agencies if you want to look.

" On Thursday, Pelosi said the clandestine agency lied about what Bush-era interrogation methods were used on high-profile terror detainees in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. "

" Panetta pushed back Friday in a letter to CIA staff, affirming that the agency's response to congressional inquiries about the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah were truthful. "

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/16/panetta-makes-speech-cia-director-amid-controversy-pelosis-charges/


She said they lied and he said the CIA was truthful. That pretty much is refuting.

re·fute
play_w2("R0121700")


 (r-fyt)
tr.v. re·fut·ed, re·fut·ing, re·futes
1. To prove to be false or erroneous; overthrow by argument or proof: refute testimony.2. To deny the accuracy or truth of: refuted the results of the poll. 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/refute
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

 As far as I can tell,Panetta is staying out of it.He hasn`t refuted her.



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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 4:01:20 AM   
ElitistBastard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElitistBastard

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElitistBastard

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"In a testimony that could bolster Speaker Nancy Pelosi's claim that the CIA misled her during briefings on detainee interrogations, former Senator Bob Graham insisted on Thursday that he too was kept in the dark about the use of waterboarding, and called the agency's records on these briefings "suspect."

In an interview with the Huffington Post, the former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman said that approximately a month ago, the CIA provided him with false information about how many times and when he was briefed on enhanced interrogations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/14/graham-cia-gave-me-false_n_203683.html


Pray tell, let me see if I understand this clearly.

This government flunky claims that the Central Intelligence Agency dissembled to him how often they met with him and what they said to him?

This, peons, is just one example of why Democracy doesn’t work.

Graham is apparently a very consistent diarist. If he's saying he has no record of the two supposed briefings by the CIA then it is very possible that the CIA is lying.


If this glorified clerk is having memory problems perhaps he should retire.

Former Senator Graham is not having memory problems. The fact is he and others checked his diary for the days in question and found no mention of the briefings and no time not filled by other activities. Considering that he quite famously keeps a diary of everything he does every day it seems odd that he would have records of every other CIA briefing during his career but no indication of the these 2 I'm more than skeptical that they occured.


If this stooge of the commoners has to keep a diary then that is a most fair indication that his memory cannot be trusted.  Perhaps he forgot to write down that these breifings in the first place, hmmmm...?  This is the kind of "leadership" you get when you allow the ignorant mass of the common people to have a say in their own governance.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 4:19:12 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		ewww...

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 6:41:09 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElitistBastard

If this stooge of the commoners has to keep a diary then that is a most fair indication that his memory cannot be trusted.  Perhaps he forgot to write down that these breifings in the first place, hmmmm...?  This is the kind of "leadership" you get when you allow the ignorant mass of the common people to have a say in their own governance.


WTF?  I keep a diary at my work.  I have a lot of things going on, and sometimes need to refer back to my notes to clarify something, or to pinpoint a date.  Ain't nuthin' wrong with that.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 9:22:24 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

" On Thursday, Pelosi said the clandestine agency lied about what Bush-era interrogation methods were used on high-profile terror detainees in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. "

" Panetta pushed back Friday in a letter to CIA staff, affirming that the agency's response to congressional inquiries about the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah were truthful. "

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/16/panetta-makes-speech-cia-director-amid-controversy-pelosis-charges/


She said they lied and he said the CIA was truthful. That pretty much is refuting.



While I'm not sure who to believe here, Panetta's statement wasn't much of a refute.  It was a cleverly worded statement open to reading between the lines.

This was the full quote:

Panetta pushed back Friday in a letter to CIA staff, affirming that the agency's response to congressional inquiries about the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah were truthful. "Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened," he said in the letter.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 10:20:28 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Here is the entire paragraph which you pulled that one sentence from:

" Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress. That is against our laws and our values. As the Agency indicated previously in response to Congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.” Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened. "

http://thepage.time.com/panetta-statement-to-cia-staff-on-interrogation-briefings/

Notice this sentence in that paragraph " As the Agency indicated previously in response to Congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.”

I bolded the portion that is the refuting of Pelosi's statement.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 10:48:51 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		While I know that fits the definition of the word, the way I look at refute is the first part of your dictionary definition.

Until I see some proof it is just one side claiming the other is lying.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 10:58:09 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		This is my last response in this part of the issue, because if this does not do it, then you are just purposefully not agreeing for some reason other than facts and logic.

Pelosi = CIA lied about briefings and subjects discussed
+
Panetta = CIA was truthful in 2002 about the briefings and subjects discussed
_______________

Panetta refutes Pelosi statement.

Whether there are other facts that will be uncovered, the statement I made that Panetta refuted Pelosi's statement is irrefutable. That was the entire point. Accept that fact or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

While I know that fits the definition of the word, the way I look at refute is the first part of your dictionary definition.

Until I see some proof it is just one side claiming the other is lying.



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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 10:58:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Until I see some proof it is just one side claiming the other is lying.




       So ask yourself who has a reason to lie? 

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 11:10:38 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Panetta refutes Pelosi statement.

Whether there are other facts that will be uncovered, the statement I made that Panetta refuted Pelosi's statement is irrefutable. That was the entire point. Accept that fact or not.



That depends what you are asking me to accept as fact.

If you want me to agree to your semantic argument, fine.

If you are asking me to agree that what Panetta said proves Pelosi wrong, not so fine.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 11:13:31 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


     So ask yourself who has a reason to lie? 


I think they both do, which is why I've stayed out of this thread until now.

I don't know what to believe until I see some evidence.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 12:40:24 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Hold on. We already know the CIA lied about this. They lied to former senator Graham and have admitted to it.

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RE: Pelosi says Bush team misled her on waterboarding - 5/17/2009 1:06:18 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hold on. We already know the CIA lied about this. They lied to former senator Graham and have admitted to it.


Then I missed something.  Have a link?

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