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Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/15/2009 6:02:01 PM

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I did not keep a close eye on what The President said during his campaign, but I thought he said these things could be taken care of by our normal criminal justice system.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8052999.stm

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/15/2009 6:47:19 PM

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Wow. No comments yet? I thought those that were vehemently against these tribunals a year ago, would jump all over them again.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/15/2009 7:30:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Wow. No comments yet? I thought those that were vehemently against these tribunals a year ago, would jump all over them again.

My understanding from other news sources is that of the 240 remaining detainees only 20 will be judged by a tribunal and the rest, if prosecuted, will be in federal courts.

And no, I don't agree with the decision, although it does seem as if certain basic legals standards that the Bush administration refused to apply in the tribunals will now be upheld.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/15/2009 7:33:56 PM

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Sorry for the delay, been reading around the subject.

i understand that Obama has been advised that, after all, civilian courts pose insurmountable problems. However he has placed new restrictions on these military tribunals. no evidence gained from torture and new rules regarding hearsay evidence.

It's a start, but i am disappointed. Seems to me this is a compromise....and i'm not sure that compromise ought to have anything to do with justice. Compromise is all too often linked to expediency, and i'm damn sure that's nothing to do with justice.

It's better than what was proposed by Bush, but not everything i'd hoped for.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/15/2009 10:00:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I can guess how some of the more vocal Republicans view this, but it is a wonder they have not taken to this like sharks smelling blood.

What's to guess at? Military tribunals were the best of bad options under Bush II. They still are under President Obama. Funny how we don't have anybody telling us how wrong we are now...

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/15/2009 10:15:07 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolfI would still like to see how some of the more vocal Dems view this. I can guess how some of the more vocal Republicans view this, but it is a wonder they have not taken to this like sharks smelling blood.

I'm no democrat, but as one of the more vocal liberals, I'm extremely disappointed. He lost a fair bit of credibility with me the last few days, and it's not going to be easy for him to get it back anytime soon. Very disappointing.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 12:29:25 AM

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Ah yes, the esteemed president, bringing back the tribunals he once branded "a failure".
j

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 1:28:49 AM

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I am frustrated and disappointed with the situation.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 4:49:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

Ah yes, the esteemed president, bringing back the tribunals he once branded "a failure".
j

But he isnt bringing them back under the same conditions. The point about hearsay not being admissible is a big step forward.

That said i would rather they were tried in a civil court. Surely a terrorist is a terrorist and can be tried as such. If they are to be tried by the military then surely they should be treated as POWs while in detention. The one thing I have been against all along is the situation described by the BBC story and copied below.

quote:

Shortly before his announcement, US officials said that Algerian detainee Lakhdar Boumediene had left Guantanamo Bay for France.
Mr Boumediene was arrested in Bosnia in 2001 and was held for seven years. He was cleared of any wrongdoing in November.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 7:15:01 AM

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"Re-opening these military tribunals may also delay the closing of Guantanamo, says Dozier. The earliest the trials of 13 defendents (9 of whom are charged with helping orchestrate the September 11 terror attacks) can resume is September. That would give prosecutors about four months to finish before the end of the year, because these military tribunals cannot be held back in the United States.

The rest of the 241 Guantanamo detainees will either be released, transferred to other countries, tried in civilian U.S. federal courts or, potentially, held indefinitely as prisoners of war with full Geneva Conventions rights. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/16/politics/main5018988.shtml

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Wow. No comments yet? I thought those that were vehemently against these tribunals a year ago, would jump all over them again.

My understanding from other news sources is that of the 240 remaining detainees only 20 will be judged by a tribunal and the rest, if prosecuted, will be in federal courts.

And no, I don't agree with the decision, although it does seem as if certain basic legals standards that the Bush administration refused to apply in the tribunals will now be upheld.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 7:17:36 AM

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"Mr. Obama said the changes were designed to give defendants stronger legal protections, such as a ban on evidence "obtained through torture, or by using cruel or degrading interrogation methods," like waterboarding; limiting use of hearsay evidence; granting the accused more say in who represents them; and protecting detainees who refuse to testify from legal sanctions. "

""In one swift move, Obama both backtracks on a major campaign promise to change the way the United States fights terrorism and undermines the nation's core respect for the rule of law," said Amnesty International executive director Larry Cox. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/16/politics/main5018988.shtml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

Ah yes, the esteemed president, bringing back the tribunals he once branded "a failure".
j

But he isnt bringing them back under the same conditions. The point about hearsay not being admissible is a big step forward.

That said i would rather they were tried in a civil court. Surely a terrorist is a terrorist and can be tried as such. If they are to be tried by the military then surely they should be treated as POWs while in detention. The one thing I have been against all along is the situation described by the BBC story and copied below.

quote:

Shortly before his announcement, US officials said that Algerian detainee Lakhdar Boumediene had left Guantanamo Bay for France.
Mr Boumediene was arrested in Bosnia in 2001 and was held for seven years. He was cleared of any wrongdoing in November.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 8:09:55 AM

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I'm encouraged by this move on Obama's part. Maybe he really is smarter than I have given him credit for. With this move he appears to be smart enough not to stick to a rigid party line all of the time and he appears to be butting heads a little more often with the hard line Dems in Congress than in earlier days.

The most encouraging thing is that he is smart enough to see what his supporters cannot.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 8:55:58 AM

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What bush did wasn`t military tribunals.

He called what he did ,military tribunals.But they were more like imprisonment without trail.Non tribunals,non-existent trials.

bush called letting men languish in jail,most of them not terrorists,justice.

What Obama is doing now,is not what bush did.The names are the same.That`s were the similarities end.bush had 6 plus years to sort this out and didn`t.It`s obvious that that was intentional and part of the plan.

Still don`t see why those folks that created this mess(or their supporters), have any credibility criticizing Obama for cleaning it up.

I`m also very amused that cons are going to tell me that I should be upset about this.

I`m not.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/16/2009 9:06:20 AM >

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 9:07:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The rest of the 241 Guantanamo detainees will either be released, transferred to other countries, tried in civilian U.S. federal courts or, potentially, held indefinitely as prisoners of war with full Geneva Conventions rights. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/16/politics/main5018988.shtml

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the highlighting of held indefinitely, because there is a significant difference between being held as prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions and being held as unlawful combatants with no status and no legal rights.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 12:05:50 PM

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Not just held as prisoners under the Geneva Convention, which they should have been done to begin with, but held indefinately. What reason would there be to hold them indefinately? If they are that dangerous, wouldn't that be obvious in some kind of due process?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The rest of the 241 Guantanamo detainees will either be released, transferred to other countries, tried in civilian U.S. federal courts or, potentially, held indefinitely as prisoners of war with full Geneva Conventions rights. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/16/politics/main5018988.shtml

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the highlighting of held indefinitely, because there is a significant difference between being held as prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions and being held as unlawful combatants with no status and no legal rights.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 12:09:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What bush did wasn`t military tribunals.

He called what he did ,military tribunals.But they were more like imprisonment without trail.Non tribunals,non-existent trials.

bush called letting men languish in jail,most of them not terrorists,justice.

What Obama is doing now,is not what bush did.The names are the same.That`s were the similarities end.bush had 6 plus years to sort this out and didn`t.It`s obvious that that was intentional and part of the plan.

Even the experts at international organizations against these proceedings are calling them "Bush Lite" programs and such.

quote:

Still don`t see why those folks that created this mess(or their supporters), have any credibility criticizing Obama for cleaning it up.

I`m also very amused that cons are going to tell me that I should be upset about this.

I`m not.

What was his stance on this during the campaign? What were his promises? Did he or did he not say these matters could all be handled with our existing court system?

What upsets me, is even though I was/am skeptical, I was hoping there would be a big change. I am starting to see a lot of broken campaign promises and turn abouts on certain issues. If that does not upset you, then I am not sure what to say about that.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 12:09:49 PM

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The "being held indefinately"clause is a major sticking point for me.

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 5:05:25 PM

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Perhaps someone could tell me if the right of habeus corpus has been re-instated? Or are we still operating under the kangaroo courts of "Bad King George Bush II?" I honestly haven't heard if the Obama "tweaks" on the unamerican Gitmo outrages include little things like giving these POWs representation, or re-instating the "quaint" Geneva Conventions.

I don't mind military tribunals... but I DO MIND bannana republic style show trials, before their execution.

Does anyone have a list of what changes the PRESIDENT (a real, elected President, BTW) is asking for in the reinstatement of these trials, which were started under "El Dictator shit-for brains?"

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 9:06:25 PM

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I'm glad you people weren't around to bitch when Truman dropped the bomb.

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RE: Military Tribunals Set To Resume - 5/16/2009 10:01:53 PM

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LOL, Imus, me too.
We should be executing those savages as spies after they get done questioning them.
What the hell is all this "trial" stuff? I'd just be a dog and pony show anyway.
I'd LOVE to get on one of those jurys! I'd be staring at them and crossing my index finger across my throat.
Now that they're getting back to work maybe we can have some televised shootings or hangings when they execute them!
"Man! This is going to be good, pass the cheezy doritos and chicken wings before they snap his neck!"

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