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Actually, the founding fathers were quite explicit that the United States was NOT a Christian nation (and they were quite aware of Islam, for instance). Another poster earlier referred to a letter by Thomas Jefferson, where the term "separation of church and state" originated. In that letter (to a congregation), Jefferson was very explicit that the intent of the First Amendment was to prevent establishing a Christian nation.

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The patriarchal principles were cultural at the time, not religious. Of course, Christianity being the predominant European religion, there was little conflict between the two.

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The claim that "since they were all Christian, the First Amendment really was only meant to apply to Christians" amounts to saying "the First Amendment was sloppily written".

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Given that they debated the exact wording for months - and also given that the founding fathers explicitly voted to remove the word God from the first drafts of the Constitution - that doesn't hold water. There are plenty of letters and notes from those debates that show that they were very much aware that the First Amendment could lead to a "Muselman" (muslim) becoming President.

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So the separation of church and state really is on very solid ground, both historically and by legal precedent.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Actually, the founding fathers were quite explicit that the United States was NOT a Christian nation (and they were quite aware of Islam, for instance). Another poster earlier referred to a letter by Thomas Jefferson, where the term "separation of church and state" originated. In that letter (to a congregation), Jefferson was very explicit that the intent of the First Amendment was to prevent establishing a Christian nation.

Again!  That’s what I said!  Officially, the United States was not founded as a Christian nation.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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The patriarchal principles were cultural at the time, not religious. Of course, Christianity being the predominant European religion, there was little conflict between the two.

A culture arising from the dominating influence Christianity has had upon Western Society.

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The claim that "since they were all Christian, the First Amendment really was only meant to apply to Christians" amounts to saying "the First Amendment was sloppily written".

I’ve made no such claim.

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
"Separation of church and state" isn't something that can be "violated" actually. It's not a Constitutional law...it's more a theory, or an ideal.

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Not just officially, that's the point. It was a very deliberate and explicit decision to make it NOT a Christian nation, but rather one that permits individuals to be Christian. Or Muslim. Or whatever else they wanted.

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That was more of a general remark, not specifically targeted at you - I think we are mostly in agreement. I think I saw somebody else make that claim further upthread.

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How many people who do not consider themselves Christian – including Deists – believe in a single God as opposed to many Gods?  Why is this?  Even if some of the founders did not believe in the God of the Bible, they were from a culture heavily steeped in Christianity and this led to certain presumptions, certain paradigms, on their part.  That’s my point. 

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Monotheism FAR predates Christianity, including (then) major religions in ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Persia, not to mention Judaism (also long before Christianity) and Islam (OK, that one came later). Even Hinduism, with its many deities, all comes back to Brahman: the Upanishads open with "Brahman is in all that is; Brahman is in all that is not," and a later chapter describes the God of Fire bragging, but without Brahman, he is unable to set even a straw aflame.

Your reference to the impact of Judeo-Christian thought on our culture is accurate, but hardly evidence for a Christian national foundation. We are also heavily under the influence of Greco-Roman and Germanic thought, but I notice no one's claiming the U.S. was founded as a pagan nation or a Celtic/Norse/Barbarian nation--though those claims would deserve equal merit.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Not just officially, that's the point. It was a very deliberate and explicit decision to make it NOT a Christian nation, but rather one that permits individuals to be Christian. Or Muslim. Or whatever else they wanted.

Yes, that's the whole point behind freedom of religion.  BUT, at that time, the vast majority of people were Christians and this influnced how they saw the world.  It influenced what laws were considered appropriate and which ones weren't.  Take, for example, abortion.  It was illegal until fairly recently.  Why?  Because most people were against abortion.  Why?  Because the Bible says things like "thou shalt not kill," and "go forth and multiply."   Legally, it may have not been a Christian nation but culturally it was.

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ORIGINAL: Mezrem

First off it's a vulgar waste of time for the congress to have this on the agenda. There are not enough problems with every thing going on to keep these idiots busy? One point I would like to make is this though... There is no constitutional basis for the separation of church and state as interpreted by the majority today. Such a separation is an interpretation of some other documents one of them being a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist Minister.

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The point I am trying to make (and apparently am not getting across to people) is that it is entirely accurate to refer to the United States (at least until fairly recent times) as a Christian nation in the same sense that it is accurate to refer to Egypt as a Muslim nation or India as a Hindu nation.

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Well, doh.

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Of course culturally it was. That's kind of like saying that culturally it was a British nation. Yet we fought a revolutionary war. This was one of the reasons for the First Amendment: to ensure that this would never be legally enforced.

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I would very strongly disagree with the laws even being based on Christianity. Of course, religion - Christian or otherwise - will usually have the same values as society as a whole.

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But that's not evidence that the laws are based on Christianity in any way, shape or form.

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Take murder. It's illegal because it harms society, not because there is a Christian commandment against it.  Abortion is no different. In fact, until very recently, it was a non-issue in religious terms, and certainly at the time of the Founding Fathers.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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The point I am trying to make (and apparently am not getting across to people) is that it is entirely accurate to refer to the United States (at least until fairly recent times) as a Christian nation in the same sense that it is accurate to refer to Egypt as a Muslim nation or India as a Hindu nation.

Then you are wrong, as this discussion deals with the legal/Constitutional issues, not our cultural heritage.

India does not base its democracy on Hinduism, and Egypt doesn't turn to the Koran to run its courts.

The repeated claim that this is a Christian nation in a legal context is irrevelant--and selective at best.

[and dcnovice makes a good point]

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

"Separation of church and state" isn't something that can be "violated" actually. It's not a Constitutional law...

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ORIGINAL: Cagey18

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

"Separation of church and state" isn't something that can be "violated" actually. It's not a Constitutional law...

Actually it is part of Constitutional law, once it is interpreted so by the Supreme Court.   Which it did, first in 1878,[/link] and then in a series of cases starting in 1948:
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

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ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

You are the one that is wrong. We DID base our democracy on Judaeo-Christian principles since it is primarily derived from British  "common law" which in turn was based on those principles. Assuming you are correct about India and Egypt, it is *more* appropriate to call the US a Christian nation.

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Then you are wrong, as this discussion deals with the legal/Constitutional issues, not our cultural heritage.

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India does not base its democracy on Hinduism, and Egypt doesn't turn to the Koran to run its courts.

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The repeated claim that this is a Christian nation in a legal context is irrevelant--and selective at best.

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ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

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ORIGINAL: Cagey18

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

"Separation of church and state" isn't something that can be "violated" actually. It's not a Constitutional law...

Actually it is part of Constitutional law, once it is interpreted so by the Supreme Court.   Which it did, first in 1878,[/link] and then in a series of cases starting in 1948:
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

If youre going to be a nit I'll be more of a nit. It is not part of Constitutional law since SCOTUS interpretations do not require amendments to be reversed. Anything that can be changed by 9 justices "on a whim" is not part of the law. The law is what it says in plain English.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Then you are wrong, as this discussion deals with the legal/Constitutional issues, not our cultural heritage.

How can you possibly discuss legal/Constitutional issues without discussing the cultural heritage such things arise from?

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You are wrong, based upon your own logic, as we are ultimately a Human Nation, as all of our behavior, world wide, derives from being human. See how that works? It is still not relevant to the Constitutionality of whether this Bible bill is legal or not.

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ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

You are the one that is wrong. We DID base our democracy on Judaeo-Christian principles since it is primarily derived from British  "common law" which in turn was based on those principles. Assuming you are correct about India and Egypt, it is *more* appropriate to call the US a Christian nation.