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RCdc -> RE: Faith without works (5/28/2009 2:12:58 PM)
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ORIGINAL: ienigma777
Darcy, I haven't made absolutes, and the sweeping statements as you call it, are the common generalization of what these 'christians' believe.
I am also placing your inital statement here.
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Christians, typically adore the cross and the slain jesus thereon. Saying, it is a symbolic demonstration of God's love for mankind.
Sweeping statement, common generalisations. Same old thing. You were the person stating that lies told enough become true. I am simply stating that your fallacy on what the symbol of a crucifix is could be construed a lie and therefore, no different to the christians you seem to be attempting to condemn.
Some chrisitans but great stock in a crucifix. But not all. Some don't use icons and idols, after all it is written not to! None of my research or questioning of christians has given me anything to recognise it as symbolic of gods love, but rather of christs death. Remembering also that there is not just one crucifix - there are many types with each having their own symbols which mean different things. Some see it as a protection symbol. Some recognise it as a symbol of foolishness. Some see it as triumph of good over evil. Some as salvation. Or remembering the harsh treatment. Way back, it was used as a form of identification. Cheifly, it stems from rennaisence art, when the image of a crucifix, rather than a cross, became more mainstream. Up until that point, it was a cross that you would see. Cross or crucifix has less impact, than where a cross is placed. That has more 'meaning' than the idol/icon itself. To some people a crucifix causes distress and they see it as a lie and prefere to have an icon of jesus off a cross (crossless).
If you really want to get into the whole history, look to the Roman Catholic Crucifix and how it is positioned and it's removal. Its nothing about love, but about sacrifice.
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The crucifix.....marketing an idea, marketing an agenda. I've been a minister, and studied, I mean really, truthfully studied, the bible, and I don't put much stock in it. The teachings, the history all interplay to control the masses, the church/state ruled and took what it wanted. It is...MARKETING. And the church owns the world.
Crosses and by association crucifix was around way before the marketing you are getting at. People would carve them, make them from reeds. It was a symbol to identify a christian for one. Of course in more recent times (and I am talking hundreds of years here) marketing occurs in all religions or spirituality. But I would argue that a cross has spiritual relevance beyond the marketing of the vatican, rennasince artists or any other religious organisation.
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I don't care that you go to church or not, simply don't care...No pictures necessary ( you are being snide with that comment). It would be appreciated if you would keep the convesation up to your usual high standard.
I wasn't being snide. I guess you haven't read many of my threads is all - I am a photographer and an artist. It's what I do. And I photograph religious icons and buildings. I sketch. Like I said before, it's my thing. If you felt I was just trying to be funny, I wasn't.
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It's exchange of ideas Darcy.....explorations of different viewpoints.....a concept which is sorely lacking here of these forums.
I get that. And I appriciate it. But I do draw the line at expressing a viewpoint as a fact. And I won't apologise that I stood up to your mass generalisation and incorrect addressing of a 'typical' cross and or crucifix. You never gave it over as a personal idea, you gave it as a truth.
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Okay, you make mention, me not citing any verifications as to what I write....funnny, when I do, I'm accused of just cutting and pasting links, and doing zappy one liners. And no one acknowledges , they only can't wait till I get to the old folks home. When I don't, as here, then you guys want verifications, but I don't see link verifications in what you all are saying.
Hell, Darcy, just dispense with any dialogue whatsoever, and everyone just paste up links.
I don't do linkage only, I prefere one on one communication. Of course, most of my knowledge isn't internet based. It's years of experience, some book reading and talking to various Vicars, Pastors, Deans and other people.
My best advice is to go speak to different denominational leaders and flock - I am not avoiding posting links, but really, it isn't that hard to google. There is a website by the Catholics, Anglicans, blahblahblah - just look it up. You made a sweeping statement about 'christians' - I am suggesting that not all christians think the same or are even the same denomination and you should ask them as an individual, rather than a collective.
I know it might seem like bad karma to say it, but really, Corinth, Romans, Gal etc all explain crucifixiton and what it meant.
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Because Jesus was crucified, the Cross has assumed theological significance for Christians. It symbolizes reconciliation with God through faith in Christ (1 Cor. 1:18 - 25), whose life, death, and Resurrection are proof of God's forgiveness of human sin.
Douglas Ezell
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Icons are my thing as well, being in marketing, creating, you must be aware of symbolism, etc. ...well,.... not any more, all you need is some glitzo manipulated ad work.
So, I throw out my opinion, and because it flys in the face of what you or others believe...I knock it off and should just go along?????? With what......the preconcieved notions and writings of people long time dead, who no one really knows ever existed, save for the actual historical personalities.
I never said that icons and symbolism doesn't exist, I am refuting your generalisation.
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Jesus, existed, because he fullifilled scripture, I don't buy it, what was written, this jesus was a creation to fit those scriptures, how easy it is to create a character to preconived notions. Fit the character to the circumstances. I've done it so many times, when I needed a character to fit a situation, I simply created him/her/it. That simple.
I just wonder why as a minister you suddenly changed your mind? I get that people leave their ministries, that is all cool. Just to me your claim to be a minister (or ex) and the above statement just don't meld. Don't feel you have to explain because peoples choices are often private and personal but if you do, that's cool too.
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Look, if you and anyone else, wants to believe in this book, the saviour thing....fine...I'm not trying to persuade anyone here....... I thought these forums was supposed to be an exchange of ideas..... evidently I am sorely mistaken....and nit-picking....and you call it....oh, no, it's faith without works......well, when they liberated Auchwitz....and they viewed the "camp'...one of the inmates said something like...Look and behold the works of man.
So, evidently, this thread got side-railed into this bible thing.....I'm sorry for that. If you talk the concept of Faith without works....then that is an entirely different matter from this bible stuff. But, didn't the thread start out with bible stuff?
So much for exploration of ideas.
Have a nice day.
I am with you. What people think of the bible is their yumminess. I do nit pick when it comes to misinformation though. Like I said before, I am a pedant - my bad. But you are the one - were you not - who stated -
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If you tell a lie, often enough...it becomes the truth.
Well, I offered you an alternative to the fallacy that I perceived that you gave. Isn't that what exploration is about?
the.dark.
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