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Faith without works - 5/25/2009 10:29:41 PM   
Alphascendant


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Those are wrong who put a mere notional belief of the gospel for the whole of evangelical religion, as many now do. No doubt, true faith alone, whereby men have part in Christ's righteousness, atonement, and grace, saves their souls; but it produces holy fruits, and is shown to be real by its effect on their works; while mere assent to any form of doctrine, or mere historical belief of any facts, wholly differs from this saving faith. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls? Can this faith save him? All things should be accounted profitable or unprofitable to us, as they tend to forward or hinder the salvation of our souls. This place of Scripture plainly shows that an opinion, or assent to the gospel, without works, is not faith.
There is no way to show we really believe in Christ, but by being diligent in good works, from gospel motives, and for gospel purposes. Men may boast to others, and be conceited of that which they really have not. There is not only to be assent in faith, but consent; not only an assent to the truth of the word, but a consent to take Christ. True believing is not an act of the understanding only, but a work of the whole heart. That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab.
Abraham believed the Holy Spirit, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Faith, producing such works, advanced him to peculiar favours. We see then, ver. #(24), how that by works a man is justified, not by a bare opinion or profession, or believing without obeying; but by having such faith as produces good works. And to have to deny his own reason, affections, and interests, is an action fit to try a believer. Observe here, the wonderful power of faith in changing sinners.
Rahab's conduct proved her faith to be living, or having power; it showed that she believed with her heart, not merely by an assent of the understanding. Let us then take heed, for the best works, without faith, are dead; they want root and principle. By faith any thing we do is really good; as done in obedience to the Holy Spirit, and aiming at it’s acceptance: the root is as though it were dead, when there is no fruit. Faith is the root, good works are the fruits; and we must see to it that we have both. This is the grace of the Holy Spirit wherein we stand, and we should stand to it. There is no middle state. Every one must either live as the Spirit's friend, or as the Holy Spirit's enemy. Living to the Holy Spirit, as it is the consequence of faith, which justifies and will save, obliges us to do nothing against him, but every thing for him and to him.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=67&source=2&seq=i.66.2.2

This was edited by removing the word “God” as I believe that the words “God,” “LORD,” “Jesus,” and “church,’ to be terms indoctrinated into today’s translations by these guys:

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
II Corinthians 2.13-15

I liken the modern “Christian” doctrine to heroin, it makes you feel good but it isn’t healthy.
 
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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 10:34:34 PM   
hlen5


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Why is your profile not to be found?? If you are professing your faith or beliefs, why don't you own it??


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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 10:54:31 PM   
Alphascendant


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Does that mean I'm not getting into heaven after all?

Why does your profile only show the back of your head?

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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 10:58:57 PM   
hlen5


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It's not for me to judge you or your faith. That is Another's job.

And as for your question to me I say - Busted! and Touche!!

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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 11:15:12 PM   
HeavansKeeper


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Alpha, what is your opinion of what you've posted?

I can't tell to what extent, if any, you concur with the beliefs of the good people from biblegateway.



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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 11:32:33 PM   
GreedyTop


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*eyes cross*

doesn't anyone believe in paragraphs anymore?


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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 11:36:02 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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I'm not sure what "faith" means. I'm not sure if I believe in a God, but even assuming that there is one, I'm not sure that the KJV Bible is the end-all authority on who He/She/It is, or what He/She/It wants from me. So "faith", for me, is a pretty shaky thing.

Works, though... I know what suffering means. I know that people live quiet, desperate lives, full of hunger and sadness and pain. And I don't like it. I want to make the world a better place. I want to "immanentize the eschaton". I want to make mankind freer, happier, better able to pursue our individual passions and pastimes. And if there is a God, I hope He/She/It approves, or at least understands.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 11:40:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I want to make mankind freer, happier, better able to pursue our individual passions and pastimes. And if there is a God, I hope He/She/It approves, or at least understands.

If there is a God, I think probably so...

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ~Matthew 25:40

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/25/2009 11:48:41 PM >

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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 11:45:00 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I want to make mankind freer, happier, better able to pursue our individual passions and pastimes. And if there is a God, I hope He/She/It approves, or at least understands.

If there is a God, I think probably so...

Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ~Matthew 25:40

K.





See, that's honestly my hope. I've read the Christian Bible pretty thoroughly, and my hope is that, if I ever meet the man Yeshua Ben Yosef, I can look him in the eye and say "I tried to follow your example the best I knew how. There were a few parts I deliberately ignored, but only because I couldn't imagine a guy like you actually espousing them, so I figured they were just someone else trying to put words in your mouth." And if I don't... well, hopefully my actions on this planet at least had the effect of slowing the wheel of samsara a little.


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RE: Faith without works - 5/25/2009 11:50:34 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

See, that's honestly my hope. I've read the Christian Bible pretty thoroughly...

I think you're on pretty safe ground. It is not merely a sentiment peculiar to the teachings of Christ...


The Lord sayeth,
Hear my supreme word which I shall speak unto thee, My beloved,
with desire for thy welfare:
I am the consciousness of beings;
and of knowledge, the knowledge of the supreme.
I am the power, and I am the silence.
I am the brightly shining lamp of knowledge dwelling within thee;
out of My compassion for you,
I destroy the darkness born of ignorance.
I am the same in all beings;
there are none who are disliked or favorites to Me.
He who sees Me everywhere, and sees all things in Me;
I am not lost to him, and he is not lost to Me.
Hear my supreme word, for thou art surely loved by Me;
I speak for thy good.
He who sees the supreme Lord existing alike in all beings,
is he who truly sees.

~selected from the Bhagavad Gita



Be well,

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/26/2009 12:36:26 AM >

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 2:33:41 AM   
Alphascendant


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I think biblegateway is a wonderful website and use it often although I don't care to much for all of the various translations. My favorite translation is the Geneva 1560 (http://www.thedcl.org/bible/gb/index.html) because it seems that most of the translations after that, beginning with the King James, were designed to be misleading and produced solely for the gain of power and wealth. Today's King James isn't even a King James translation, but a 1769 Baskerville spelling, (http://greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/index.html)  So there you have it, a lie right on the very cover. (http://www.catholicapologetics.net/geneva.htm). 

Even Christ can be quoted as clarifying that the original scriptures actually had a somewhat different meaning than what was being taught in those days:


  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Holy Spirit which is in heaven.
 
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 

Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 
Matthew 5.16-22
 


Until the stone tablets Moses carried down from the mountain suddenly turn up, I'll run with what Christ said to the best of my ability. 

Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Luke 14.34-35

Somewhere in the New Testament Paul states that we should not hold his, Peter's or anybody else's words with higher regards than the words of Christ. Although at this moment I am unable to pinpoint the exact location of that statement, one good example refers to the subject of this thread. Faith without works. The majority of today's "Christian" preach that all one has to do is say they believe Christ is the Son of "God" and they are automatically getting a pass into heaven, even Satan himself would admit that. But that isn't exactly what Christ preaches.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5.39

And the Holy Spirit will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Holy Spirit will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Holy Spirit for Inspiration, to keep it's commandments and it's statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Holy Spirit for Inspiration with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.   Deuteronomy 30.9-11

Those are pretty big "ifs"


Trust in the Holy Spirit with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.  Proverbs 3.5

<sigh> Does anybody want to help me rewrite this thing? We could call it the Collarme Translation.

Revelation 1.10-12


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 2:56:33 AM   
RCdc


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Bible gateway is a red top - for those in the states - it's Fox.
Why not skip translating and learn the orignal texts and languages instead.  Now that really opens ones eyes to what is written.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 3:10:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

*eyes cross*

doesn't anyone believe in paragraphs anymore?




*fervent paragraph worshipper*



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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 3:22:10 AM   
RCdc


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Ok, I will bite now because after reading other threads, I can see where this came from.
I am guessing this is in response to the statement in another thread that 'A Christians salvation has zero to do with helping others '.
 
I wouldn't call this 'modern' christianity.  It's pretty much been a constant and is a more a doctrine of traditionalist churches.  In fact, I would suggest that modern christianity has a far more 'hands on' approach.  More to it's detriment than anything.
 
I would surmise that it was and usually is used as a catchall term to explain certain behaviours.  In other words, in the context of the thread it was used on, it means that they weren't 'working' to gain heavenly favour, because that is a (seemingly) pointless endeavour.
 
Thing is it's basic doctrine misunderstood when handed over.  Bad communication an all that.  There is truth in it to an extent - you can't get into heaven by works alone and that faith in Jesus and belief in him is totally enough.  However, that doesn't excuse people from laziness and if a person purposefully ignores doing works for selfish reasons, then that is enough for Jesus to judge a person as being pretty selfish, whether they have faith or not.  At the end of the day in christian teaching, the almighty guy judges you on who you are and if your hearts messed up and you have ignored stuff purposefully, that shit isn't going to fly with him no matter how much faith one has.
 
the.dark.



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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 4:26:33 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant

<sigh> Does anybody want to help me rewrite this thing? We could call it the Collarme Translation.

Revelation 1.10-12




Interesting proposition; though I’m not sure we have time for that.

I would enjoy a greater understanding of what the book says, however; its main theme is one of great interest to me.

Interesting reference of scripture… and if one is not sure of what they are seeing, exactly, or how to write it; then what should they do?

Kim

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 4:50:35 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
Interesting reference of scripture… and if one is not sure of what they are seeing, exactly, or how to write it; then what should they do?

Kim


You ask.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 5:32:57 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
Interesting reference of scripture… and if one is not sure of what they are seeing, exactly, or how to write it; then what should they do?

Kim


You ask.
 
the.dark.

 


I have, but can’t seem to find anyone with relative interest, or information, whom is close enough to show what I can see, or able to see it on their own.

What to do?  What to do?

Kim


< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/26/2009 5:33:49 AM >


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 5:43:28 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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I didn't learn Aramaic but I did have some nice professors at Emory assist me with a few translations. During the time of my obsession with understanding things I study many religions, and philosophies. I will say the study of the Christian religion, and the history of the Church that followed Christ, was very interesting. Study of some later verses in some of the gospels showed an inconsistence with word placement, and usage of the original author. Meaning that some of the later chapter and verses in say Mark, may not have been written by Mark, or had a different translator for those passages.

So I studied three different versions/translations, and the biggest areas of inconsistancies I went to some people at Emory that assisted me in understanding a few of them. Access to originals is impossible though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Bible gateway is a red top - for those in the states - it's Fox.
Why not skip translating and learn the orignal texts and languages instead.  Now that really opens ones eyes to what is written.
 
the.dark.


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 5:52:46 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
I have, but can’t seem to find anyone with relative interest, or information, whom is close enough to show what I can see, or able to see it on their own.

What to do?  What to do?

Kim



I misunderstood I think?
When reading any spiritual text, the thing to 'do' is to ask.  In christian terms that would be 'apocalypsis' .  In other words, I thought you meant you wanted a more personal interpretation, rather than a standard teaching.
 
the.dark.


< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 5/26/2009 5:53:13 AM >


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RE: Faith without works - 5/26/2009 6:10:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Study of some later verses in some of the gospels showed an inconsistence with word placement, and usage of the original author. Meaning that some of the later chapter and verses in say Mark, may not have been written by Mark....

Some inconsistencies in the Bible can be analysed from a psychological perspective as well. For example, the chances of our genocidal friend Yahweh being the loving and forgiving Father of whom Christ taught appear to be somewhere between zip and zero.

K.




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