RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people...

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:32:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual ..... freedom is DEFINED by the people. It is an oxymoron to say that the majority cant trump freedom. ....ever heard of electoral tyranny? Suppose 51% vote to disenfranchise women......then 51% of those allowed to vote, vote to disenfranchise blacks........then 51% of those left vote to only allow those who own property valued over a certain amount to vote. Is that still the land of freedom, or is it possible that freedom needs to be protected from electoral tyranny?

KyttynTheMynx -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:34:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 EUROPE (okay, mainly Western Europe) is the beacon of freedom and hope and human rights in the world, NOT the United States. The United States is a fraud. Then leave?

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:34:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual That would fix the problem in California, but still leave over half the country as anti-gay. Some of those states will never allow gay marriage even in 100 years. I think it's time the federal government stepped in and created an equal rights amendment to trump ALL state constitutions, thus rendering all bans on gay marriage null and void. Then again, the 14th Amendment equal protection clause SHOULD already do that, and yet it doesn't. I doubt I'll see a gay-friendly United States in my lifetime. I would wager that by the time I die, only 10 states will have allowed gay marriage. It would take a Constitutional amenment which requires ratification of 75% of the states. If youre correct about half the country being anti-gay, then far less than half the states would vote for it. State by state is the only way to get it done. Sooner or later (maybe it wont even take 10 states) the other states will need to recognize gay marriage as more and more of their residents were legally married in a different state.

beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:37:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 The upholding of Proposition 8 in California is a major human rights defeat in this country. I don't think the United States should be allowed to be called the "land of the free" anymore. It should be "the land of the free if you're a Heterosexual Christian", because that's what it really is. I despise people putting the Bible into law. It's a violation of everything the founding fathers intended when this country was created. It makes me think maybe it's time for another revolution. The founded fathers didn't ask for freedom nicely, they TOOK IT at the end of a gun. I'm starting to think that's the only way homosexuals will get true freedom. We may end up having to kill for it, taking that freedom at the end of a gun. The religious nuts have to be stopped! I'm so angry I can't even see straight right now. Having that degree of passion towards equal rights for gay population and our heterosexual counterparts is a good thing though I firmly believe that advocating the same type of eye for an eye vigilantism is not the way to achieve some measure of equality in the LGBT community. Being a Canadian and having fought that fight for many years until we won the rights we have now took working with the system plus using the system to our advantage. What worked for us was having the tenacity and the determination to use the political system against the ones who sought to keep us less than third class citizens. Each small gain in equality was greatly celebrated and we also fought like hell to keep these rights which other take for granted. One thing which we were able to do was back local politicians who were acceptable of our cause and they in turn brought our anger and outrage to the upper levels of government where we were finally taken seriously. It's been my experience the best tactic is to take the prejudice from the closed minded segments of society and throw it back in their face. Sometimes they need to be bluntly reminded that we all are humans first and foremost.

ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:38:41 PM)
Must have gotten more CA Props confused... I thought that was part of the controversy, though, missleading wording. Oh well, it sucks getting old... ~Dave

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:43:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KyttynTheMynx Then leave? Wow, nationalist much? Typical nationalist rhetoric there. I believe in bringing this country to stand for what it was meant to stand for rather than ducking and running away. Though I admit I would leave if I had the capacity to do so, because I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle. I don't think I'm being extreme in wanting the foundation of this country upheld. The foundation is supposed to be one of freedom, but right now, you only have true freedom in this country if you're a heterosexual Christian. I despise organized religion. It's a plague on the world that does nothing but hurt innocent people.

Kybele -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:49:54 PM)
This? This is going to end /well/.

Vendaval -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:57:25 PM)
Well stated, Bear.

beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 2:59:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 I despise organized religion. It's a plague on the world that does nothing but hurt innocent people. That maybe so yet these innocent people do have free will thus they chose to follow an organized religion. How can you honestly fight for equal rights for gays when you turn around and blast another for following Christianity or Judaism or any other organized religion?

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:14:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild That maybe so yet these innocent people do have free will thus they chose to follow an organized religion. How can you honestly fight for equal rights for gays when you turn around and blast another for following Christianity or Judaism or any other organized religion? I blast them for trying to force the rest of us to live under their tyranny. Gays don't try to make others gay. Religion, however, is being forced on us with these gay marriage bans. So I will always fight against the organized religion until they leave us alone and keep their thoughts to themselves.

Suzykeu -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:21:24 PM)
I'm studying in school for a history major right now and your statement that organized religion has done nothing but hurt innocent people is quite wrong. The Catholic Church was a bastion of knowledge and science during the dark ages, the Quakers and Jesuits are two of the hardest working humanitarian organizations in the world, and Christianity in general has been a liberalizing force from spreading within the slave community of Rome or America or the wave of liberalism that undercut the monarchical dynasties of Europe. This is to say nothing of non-Christian religions (If you can find how Buddhism does nothing but hurt innocent people I'll eat my shoes). It also ignores the micro level where religion has helped many individuals, including myself, with hard times in their life. You seem to be confusing fundamental/evangelical Christianity with the whole of organized religion which is an understandable mistake when most non-fundamental adherents of religion follow the tenant best put down in Matthew 6:6 and the fundamental ones go on television singing "Onward Christian Soldiers." I also have concerns over your advocating violence as a response. If you turn a call for civil rights into a call for arms you lose the argument and do a disservice to all who honestly work for a better future for everyone. That being said, I will conclude with the words of Clemens: "If you alone of all the nation shall decide one way, and that way be the right way according to your convictions of the right, you have done your duty by yourself and by your country- hold up your head! You have nothing to be ashamed of.”

KyttynTheMynx -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:29:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 quote: ORIGINAL: KyttynTheMynx Then leave? Wow, nationalist much? Typical nationalist rhetoric there. I believe in bringing this country to stand for what it was meant to stand for rather than ducking and running away. Though I admit I would leave if I had the capacity to do so, because I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle. I don't think I'm being extreme in wanting the foundation of this country upheld. The foundation is supposed to be one of freedom, but right now, you only have true freedom in this country if you're a heterosexual Christian. I despise organized religion. It's a plague on the world that does nothing but hurt innocent people. Nope. Not a nationalist. I am just fed up with people getting their undies in a wad because they want America to be like XYZ country. If its so bad here, if you feel so oppressed, please by all means leave. I for one, wont stop you. That was all that I am trying to state. Yea, I understand that you want things to run the way Lindsey wants right here and right now, but guess what? Kyttyn wants the world to run the way she wants it. Reality? We aint gonna get things how we want them all the time. Sad, but too true. And to point something out...the country did stand for what it was meant to stand for. Freedom. The people were free to vote. Yea, it sucks that the outcome wasnt Lindseyriffic, but they exercised the right to vote.

Musicmystery -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:39:25 PM)
Something about all this reminds me of telling Civil Rights activists that they should be patient, let the system work, not cause trouble. Maybe its time to revisit "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." Violence? I hope not. But resistance and protest, absolutely. The conservatives have lost this one already--they just don't know it yet. The younger generation doesn't give a damn about who marries whom, and as the older politicians, voters and right-wing activists die out, the laws will inevitablty change. That doesn't change the current injustice, however. There is no "danger." There is no "threat to marriage." There's just people who don't like it.

DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KyttynTheMynx Nope. Not a nationalist. I am just fed up with people getting their undies in a wad because they want America to be like XYZ country. If its so bad here, if you feel so oppressed, please by all means leave. I for one, wont stop you. That was all that I am trying to state. Yea, I understand that you want things to run the way Lindsey wants right here and right now, but guess what? Kyttyn wants the world to run the way she wants it. Reality? We aint gonna get things how we want them all the time. Sad, but too true. And to point something out...the country did stand for what it was meant to stand for. Freedom. The people were free to vote. Yea, it sucks that the outcome wasnt Lindseyriffic, but they exercised the right to vote. If this country sucks right now, I think I have a right to state that fact without being told to leave the country. It's not about wanting things my way, it's about wanting TRUE freedom. People in this country cling too much to the "majority rule" and ignores the other half of that founding principle: "MINORITY RIGHTS".

BitaTruble -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:46:14 PM)
`fr` Well, I'm not quite ready to take up arms but I completely understand your distress, Lindsey. The majority used to think the world was flat. Now they know better. They'll learn here, too. If not in our lifetime, then for our future generations it's imperative that we fight the good fight. We need to go through the process and do things in a logical and orderly fashion to be heard. Shouting isn't going to do anything other than get us ignored and guns won't do anything but get us killed. The government does not have the right to interfer in the personal, intimate details of an individual and neither do 'the people'. Start writing letters, start educating and start talking. Ammo needs to be retained as a last resort, not a first offense. Even our founding Fathers knew that. There is zero secular reasoning to prevent people from marrying who they like where and when they like .. it's just ignorance that leads people to believe differently. My Mom is on husband #6 and for some reason, that's okay.. but my cousin Kim can't even get married once. It's utter bullshit but we have to start at the beginning, not at the end. I want a husband and a wife and I can't have that because someone else says no? Yep, utter bullshit. Laws against polygamy and same sex marriage should be outside the jurisdiction of any court .. it's up to those of us who truly believe in individual freedom to make it happen. I don't have anything against monogamy and if someone wants to be in a man/woman marriage, that's great. I would never try to stop it .. I just want the same consideration for being allowed to live 'my' life as I choose as well. Good luck to us!

dcnovice -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:46:19 PM)
quote: omething about all this reminds me of telling Civil Rights activists that they should be patient, let the system work, not cause trouble. Maybe its time to revisit "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." I've been thinking that too.

Musicmystery -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:48:10 PM)
Yup. If "love it or leave it" is the rule, then there's no reason for the Bill of Rights. Disagreement and speaking up is literally Constitutionally protected. Anyone who doesn't like THAT can leave.

KyttynTheMynx -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 3:48:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666 quote: ORIGINAL: KyttynTheMynx Nope. Not a nationalist. I am just fed up with people getting their undies in a wad because they want America to be like XYZ country. If its so bad here, if you feel so oppressed, please by all means leave. I for one, wont stop you. That was all that I am trying to state. Yea, I understand that you want things to run the way Lindsey wants right here and right now, but guess what? Kyttyn wants the world to run the way she wants it. Reality? We aint gonna get things how we want them all the time. Sad, but too true. And to point something out...the country did stand for what it was meant to stand for. Freedom. The people were free to vote. Yea, it sucks that the outcome wasnt Lindseyriffic, but they exercised the right to vote. If this country sucks right now, I think I have a right to state that fact without being told to leave the country. It's not about wanting things my way, it's about wanting TRUE freedom. People in this country cling too much to the "majority rule" and ignores the other half of that founding principle: "MINORITY RIGHTS". Ok lemme ask you this. What are YOU doing to make a difference. You out there campaining? You out there talking to people about your cause? Getting signatures and such? Or are you just behind the keyboard spouting hate, wanting to kill others because you cant have your way?

CruelNUnsual -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 4:06:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The younger generation doesn't give a damn about who marries whom, and as the older politicians, voters and right-wing activists die out, the laws will inevitablty change. Values change as people get older. Nothing is inevitable.

kdsub -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/26/2009 4:07:11 PM)
California has a 57% majority of minorities one of four US states...minorities voted heavily in favor of prop 8 along with Republicans. The Blacks and Latinos were the chief cause of prop 8 passing... It is one of the few issues they voted with republicans. Even then it was a close vote...over 6 million votes for and 6 million + against… It was not an overwhelming vote. I believe it will come up again but any state with uneducated minorities will be hard to change. Butch

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