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RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 4:04:19 AM

Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
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quote:

anyone who handed me a copy of the 128 slave rules would be shown the door

I agree with this...but i would have a field day with it first ( i can be rotten that way).

I would not make a move/follow a command without first sitting down and reading all 128 rules. And of course he could expect a few questions:

*innocent voice from behind bathroom door* Master...there is no rule on how many sheets of toilet paper i am permitted to use...

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(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 4:11:18 AM

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~FR~

Julia - I have as much respect for the "100 rules of a submissive" as I do for the 9 levels of submission or the 100 things to do before you're 30 (I managed less than half LOL)...

That is, they're a fun read, but not practical, accurate or to be taken seriously.

It occurred to me immediately that if this guy actually was ready to take on a slave, he'd be more than ready with responses to all your questions. If he's getting impatient over the diligence and eagerness of a potential slave to cross all the I's and dot all the T's, I'd be questioning HIS commitment, as it's obviously not matching up to yours.

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(in reply to antipode)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 8:11:06 AM

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It feels controlling to the point of being impractical. While part of me likes that, there is another part that says "wait, stop, how many people are actually doing this in the real world. am i better serving by being strong and able to be a full and complete woman - isn't having to ask for the most basic things a childlike weakness"
I am unhappy with the length and complexity of responses. I feel somewhat like I am being fed something spliced. I respect someone taking the time and patience to 'break me/break me in', but deep down in my heart i am not sure i like what i'd become. At one point in my life, long ago, i was very helpless and needed to rely on someone else for basic things. I was not healthy at all - in fact i was abusive, and depressed. My ex got me through this time with love and care - patching the holes in a submissive soul that had been told it was worthless by a world that hated transwomen . It 's not a time I am proud of or want to go back to.
In the end, i am leaning towards quietly saying 'i think we are scene/fetish incompatible'. -that is probably the best way of putting it with grace.
Thanks all for your advice.

(in reply to Fitznicely)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 8:17:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf
i am leaning towards quietly saying 'i think we are scene/fetish incompatible'.

He sounds relationship-incompatible all on his own. DesFIP's pointed question, how many relationships has he been in that required those things and why did the end, seems pertinent.

I must say, too, if you're having conversations like this with someone you haven't had coffee with yet, it feels like the cart before the horse. Unless basic chemistry with and attraction to your dominant is irrelevant to you; perhaps so.

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(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 12:09:00 PM

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Woah there tex... I think there may be a few wires you're getting crossed soemwhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf
It feels controlling to the point of being impractical. While part of me likes that, there is another part that says "wait, stop, how many people are actually doing this in the real world.

OK, I'm fine with all of this. For starters, the practicality angle. Honestly, this whole thing sounds like a new dom who has been doing a bit too much reading. No worries there. I'm a new dom too. But is there something wrong with starting slow and working up to things? Unless, of course, this particular dom needs you to commit to the world overnight in which case... well... you figure it out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf am i better serving by being strong and able to be a full and complete woman - isn't having to ask for the most basic things a childlike weakness"

This I am less happy with. No matter how much I choose to control Carol at any given instant, she is not being weak nor is she being childlike. If I choose to control some basics in her life for a while, the reasons I would do that and the reasons she would obey are anything but like those of a child. In fact, Carol would tell you that she's learned a great deal about concepts like "strength", "integrity", and "discipline" through her obedience. It is certainly possible for your partner to treat you like a child, but simply putting controls on normal adult behavior isn't that at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleafI am unhappy with the length and complexity of responses. I feel somewhat like I am being fed something spliced. I respect someone taking the time and patience to 'break me/break me in', but deep down in my heart i am not sure i like what i'd become.

For starters, nobody needs to "break you" or "break you in". MOST importantly, however, is that if the person you have identified as a leader is not painting a clear picture of where he wants to lead you too, it's pretty predictable that you're going to be concerned about it. And you should be! Especially given that it's not particularly clear that your dominant knows where he's going either. Dont' get me wrong, with Carol and I it was the blind leading the blind also. Neither of us had any experience. But I was not in such huge rush either. We spent a full year slowly slowly expanding the borders of Carol's submission so that she and I both were comfortable each step of the way. We did not have some prefab goal established before we started. We simply joined hands and explored together. THat doesn't sound like what's going on here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf At one point in my life, long ago, i was very helpless and needed to rely on someone else for basic things. I was not healthy at all - in fact i was abusive, and depressed. My ex got me through this time with love and care - patching the holes in a submissive soul that had been told it was worthless by a world that hated transwomen . It 's not a time I am proud of or want to go back to.

Good for you.. nor should you. Fundamentally, I LOVE my wife.. and I mean that with no spin on it.. in the pure, vanilla way that would be whole-heartedly approved by your grandma. If I sensed (and I have from time to time) that I was doing something that was going to be harmful to her, either in the short-term or over the course of her entire life, it's full stop for me. Done right, it should be an affirming experience that should make you stronger, not weaker. If that's not happening, then something is wrong.

You need to sort out some missed connections in your head between submission and weakness before you can proceed in a healthy way. And yes, your dom needs to slow down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf
In the end, i am leaning towards quietly saying 'i think we are scene/fetish incompatible'. -that is probably the best way of putting it with grace.

Heh, as vanilla folk, Carol and I aren't particularly "scene compatible" either. But that doesn't stop of from enjoying a master/slave relationship. WE just do it in the privacy of our own vanilla, non-sceney, non-lifestyley house.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 12:22:29 PM

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Greetings JuliaGreenleaf....

To some extent, begging protocol does work in practice. I do require my slaves and the girls I train to beg for a number of things. Food, drink, bathroom, clothing, certain activities, etc. under certain circumstances and I do it without being a micromanage. For training purposes, I will do true micromanagement for a couple of hours but not beyond that. I can't take it. <grins> I have better things to do with my life. I divide what is done when and where into three categories. They are training, in house and out of house. There are also times when full formal protocol is in place, but once again, those are the exceptions. During training periods, the slave must beg for almost all activities. During normal in house times, most things only require one request. Such as a drink, but not every time she takes a swallow from the drink. Eat, not every bite or permission for every different type of food. This usually takes only a few seconds and approval for most things is usually a formality. This is in place only if I am there. If I am not, she doesn't need to do it or wait for me to return to do those things. Outside the house it is usually only to start eating or drinking, going to the bathroom, etc. and only if I am there.

The reason for this, outside of the obvious training times, is reinforcement. It reinforces the slaves submission to me and that the permission to do things comes from me. No, each time doesn't reinforce much but it adds up. You can reinforce dominance over someone or their submission to you in large and small ways. Large ones, by their nature, don't happen that often. Small ones can happen much more frequently. I have found that many small ones work much better than a few big ones especially if the big ones are at irregular times and inconsistent in their level of reinforcement. Don't get me wrong. I do both and I am not going into a technical discussion of what the best mix of such things are. I am just noting why they are done when someone knows what they are doing. If the person is just doing them because other people do them with no clue as to why they are doing them, it works, but not as well. Enslavement theory is a totally different thread and is being discussed elsewhere.

Be well....

Malkinius

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(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 2:01:54 PM

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i think you prolly need to meet.

sounds to me alot like those early interractions where fantasy and fun are all going at high speed and the reality of it all is just begining to sink in a little. thats normal.

but the problem right now is that youre not fully engaged submissively and when youre not the idea of doing all of these things for someone you havent fully engaged with is a little daunting.

you talk about control feeling a bit 'off' or however you described it. well of course! - he doesnt have control over you at the moment, its all theoretical, he is sharing with you the things he likes and the ideas he has. if those likes and ideas arent youre likes and ideas then you have a choice.

either you decide that he has enough about him and you like him enough to take it further to a meet up. or.,
you decide that it just isnt clicking for you enough and you move on.

the control aspect comes as youre submission develops and that only really happens when youre physically together and the chemistry works.

if the chemistry works then youll probably be amazed at how much you are capable of.

right now you have to decide whether he is right for you so far. enough to meet him and see if the sparks ignite.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 5/29/2009 2:04:49 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 2:45:08 PM

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Someone offended by the girl asking questions.... definate huge neon red flag!!!!!!

How else can she learn if she doesn't ask questions? I run a Dynamic with no negotiation, I offer what I offer, she is either compatable with that or not.... but questions are essential else she can't understand what that offer actualy means in practice. Questions help her look at things that are important to her in a relationship and find out if those would be compatable with her needs the way they are handled in This relationship situation. Questions help get rid of false expectations and unwarrented assumptions, she has to know the reality of what she is walking into. Questions help her develop trust in who He is and without trust there is no relationship worth having.

As for being handed a bunch of 'slave rules' obviously printed off from some nerd site on the interweb..... If you are going to be doing more than playing silly online games with that person... RUN. Fantasy bullshit at its worst! Yes I've written 'rules' for My property when I have needed too... each rule taken from how THAT girls life runs and setting the rules on paper because she needed them that way in the early stages, as security and a learning tool whilst the relationship developed to the point where such things where not needed. Cookie cutter approaches are only taken by those who aren't really focused on the real world!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 2:52:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

He is very controlling - that's the idea.. permission for just about everything (including using the washroom).
I am not sure i am entirely into watersports - thinking about that one.
I am not sure i am entirely into how do i put it - needing to ask permission for practical life maintence things that i just want to do and not bother people with.
It is a very submissive act to do so . Part of me feels it is right - it pleases - part of me questions :is this simply too impractical a way of living life ?

That's because there are a lot of things that make up a good fantasy, but they're just too impractical to live out in real life for most people. Maybe you can negotiate something like making a weekend of it, like role play, but go back to the real world Monday morning.

Negotiate the watersports, too. If you don't want to drink it, say so, hard limit. But getting peed on in the bathtub ain't so bad, you can deal with that.

Some people live in a relationship where it's all about the dom, and that's okay if that's what fulfills you. If it's not okay with you and you want to be in more of an "equal-ish" relationship, then you'll be most compatible with a dom who has those desires, too. It's okay! The smart thing to do, actually.

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(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 4:25:33 PM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

i want to ask a simple question.

Is it wrong to ask for clarification when negotiating with someone, and give objections to things that you think may be a problem due to physical limits (example, daily extended oral, my voicebox gets strained by this )
i have reached the point with someone where this came up - the 100 rules of submissives, ect. i believe they might be Gorean in origin.
i find i am having difficulty with Him because i am asking him a lot of questions about what my day to day life would be like - (saying for example, that i need 2 hours to get ready and look pretty in the morning.)
- and objecting to some things he wants to do (ex Watersports) - something that i feel would be possible for me, but only if i am sure i was loved and cherished.
am i a) being unsub b) carefully checking out a potential Master wisely, or c) red flag because someone seems to be offended by logical questions

Firstly, asking for clarification of essential if you want to avoid mistakes and for that you move to the head of the class. I just wish a few more people had the gumption to do so.

Now regarding the rest, this Julia is where you sweetly smile at him and say: "You have been tried, tested and found wanting. Be a good fellow and go fuck yourself!"

< Message edited by IronBear -- 5/29/2009 4:26:38 PM >

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(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 5:27:50 PM

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I think it is Ravenmuses point that bothers me. I don't mind following rules - i guess i objected because this seemed a little cumbersome. I want to be able to serve without having to bother my Sir or Mam for everything - it seems rude to me in fact to be so 'dependant'.
Micromanagement for a weekend would be fine - or in times when protocol is needed. Continuously , day in and out to an extreme degree might be a bit strong. Part of me actually likes it intensely, and part of me objects a bit to the bathroom control thing - i have to be able to work hard , make a living - not have things come up at work that my boss wonders about. It is very controlling but at the same time difficult if it is that one thing - i need to be able to run life functions without interference - otherwise i am in a situation where i feel useless to people, and actually it bothers me to ask - i feel like i am depending on someone when a useful sub/slave should just simply solve the mundane problems herself.
I think .. angry is not quite the word - hesitant when i asked questions - hesitant to give much detail back or complex detail. Difficult that - sliced internet lists are somewhat difficult too - i have generally heard bad things about that.
I quietly and politely said no. It was simplest.

< Message edited by JuliaGreenleaf -- 5/29/2009 5:29:22 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 6:22:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf
I don't mind following rules - i guess i objected because this seemed a little cumbersome. I want to be able to serve without having to bother my Sir or Mam for everything - it seems rude to me in fact to be so 'dependant'.

Nobody can be compleatly micromanaged, there are always random elements happening around Us and situations that haven't been covered. Certain activitys can be micromanaged, others work best being MACRO managed. All My girls decisions (Bar one, to withdraw consent and walk away) are accountable to Me. If she is faced with a choise We haven't covered she tries her best to act in a manner she believes I would want her too. If she gets it wrong then We discuss why and what I would rather have her do in such situations. she gets a feel for what I consider significant and what I consider unimportant details and uses those to guide any decision I don't directly make for her.

A baseline for that is she knows and trusts that I have her best interests at heart and that We have to function in the world outside. Then We have My personal preferances. The longer the relationship the easier it gets as she is more in tune with how I think, there have been more times where I've corrected those decisions giving her more insite to base future ones one. Asking questions is a VITAL part of that, the better she understands the why the better she can comply with the what!

Plus the better she understands My reasoning the easier it is for her to build trust in the decisions I make regarding her life. The more trust she has the easier she can get over internal obsticals in the way of her complying with those decisions.

quote:

I quietly and politely said no. It was simplest.

Probably for the best regarding ANYONE who has a problem with a girl asking questions.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 6:55:00 PM

Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:

I'd be leary of anyone pulling up some prefab rulesheet for submission. Unless you are a prefab submissive, then prefab rules are not likely to work for you. Such a list kind of sounds like he's more interested in some fantasy than you as a living breathing human being.

Before zaphira begged Master's collar, he listed for her a set of rules that every girl who joins his home must follow. Granted they were house rules, but he added and took away as needed for the girl herself.
Some owners prefer to have rules clearly outlined so that there are no mistakes later down the road. It does not mean that it is all fantasy; that is an unfair generalization to make.

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(in reply to leadership527)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 8:14:25 PM

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Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
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This is a Fast Reply I have yet to read the thread just wanted to pick apart this Post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

i want to ask a simple question.

Rarely do these actually exist and yours is no exception

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

Is it wrong to ask for clarification when negotiating with someone,

No that is the Point of a Negotiation, how can you negotiate something you do not understand unless you ask questions. Hopefully our Dom in question is not attempting to hinder this act, if he is then he is not negotiating he is telling you how it will be and you can either accept or decline.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

give objections to things that you think may be a problem due to physical limits (example, daily extended oral, my voicebox gets strained by this )

The Point of a negotiation is to come to an understaning of a compramise on things so that both people get there needs met, perhaps not all of them but the ones that are most important.

Yeah, and the truth of the matter is that it's kind of a fantasy thing, I have known those who state it as a requirement doing it for the first month maybe two and then losing interest in the daily three hour blowjob.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

i have reached the point with someone where this came up - the 100 rules of submissives, ect. i believe they might be Gorean in origin.

Possibly, or just living in a Fantasy land, or someone who has a very exact way of how he wants things done, I know more Leather Folk with Massive Lists of Rules than I know of Goreans who do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

i find i am having difficulty with Him because i am asking him a lot of questions about what my day to day life would be like -

Sometimes this is an excersize in futility as you never really know until you spend every day together what your day to day life will be like. In my home I have NO IDEA what andis day will be like till I get up and decide what I want done and once my desires are done she is free to do what she likes as long as she meets my random needs as they arise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

(saying for example, that i need 2 hours to get ready and look pretty in the morning.)

Yeah that alone would get you ejected from my home.... good thing you weren't petitioning me. If you cannot get showered and dressed in 30 minutes in my home you can easily get left behind. 2 hours is a bit much, even for Maximum Hotness if you have to do this daily I would get bored with that very quickly. Even more so it is two hours daily that I have to wait while you get yourself to Q's and T's. I can literally get up showered, teeth brushed, clothed and out the door in 17 minutes.

I got lucky I married a woman who is just natuarally beautiful, now blow dryers, no makeup, no primping, just dressed and georgeous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

- and objecting to some things he wants to do (ex Watersports) - something that i feel would be possible for me, but only if i am sure i was loved and cherished.

Again something that takes time and comfort. I find it difficult to negotiate comfort. I know that things done with me will be different however most people are still caught up in what the LAST person did. The Last 15 women I was with were all adamant about Anal being a HARD limit. Within a few Months they ALL sang a different tune. You never know until you get to the point that you are comfortable enough to try an experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

am i
a) being unsub
b) carefully checking out a potential Master wisely, or
c) red flag because someone seems to be offended by logical questions

NONE OF THE ABOVE.

You are just being Human.

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For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to JuliaGreenleaf)

RE: A simple question - 5/29/2009 9:30:17 PM

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Joined: 4/15/2009
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Nods - we talked about it and worked several things out. I cannot really give up my morning prep time. I would find it hard to be micromanaged to that degree continuously, tho watersports is something I could deal with - deep down I kind am kind of a slut. I think it boils down to the time i need to function vs how a Dom wants to run things.
Honorable accord and parting of ways. That's not so bad.

< Message edited by JuliaGreenleaf -- 5/29/2009 9:31:06 PM >

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

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