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Obama and west bank settlements - 5/28/2009 11:19:02 PM

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Another thing Obama has done that I like.

He is pressing Israel to stop expanding settlements in the west bank. I wish that the first Bush would have followed through on this when he was president.
But Jewish lawmakers and Jewish PACs in washington have so much power that we are unable to use any influence to get Israel to do as we ask.

We keep giving them money hand over fist, and it has brought us really nothing in return. They say they are our greatest ally, but they have never deployed troups to help in any war, they have never allowed the US to use their land for strategic bases. Their human rights record is horrible. And they have one of the best economies in the world, and we STILL give them more aid than any other country.
So... when we ask Israel to stop building settlements, and they tell us no, how does that make us look to the rest of the world?

israel has public health care, something that seems impossible for us to acheive, with US funding. They have one of the best supplied armies, with OUR weapons going to them without payment.

We give Israel the sweetest deals, and they laugh in our face. Why do we continue to support Israel?

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/28/2009 11:30:24 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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They're a counterbalance. As imperfect a proxy as they may be, they are nonetheless the only proxy we have in an oil-rich region dominated by Muslim countries that at best consider us a necessary evil, and at worst just plain evil. I'm not saying I'm a fan of Israel, I'm just saying it is what it is.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/28/2009 11:54:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They're a counterbalance. As imperfect a proxy as they may be, they are nonetheless the only proxy we have in an oil-rich region dominated by Muslim countries that at best consider us a necessary evil, and at worst just plain evil. I'm not saying I'm a fan of Israel, I'm just saying it is what it is.

This...although it exaggerates somewhat I think. They are a very close ally to the usa in an area containing some of the most anti-usa countries....of course, some people might say those countries wouldn't be so anti-usa without the usa supporting israel....but tangled webs etc etc.

Strong secondary point is a lot of american jews are bound to want to support what is essentially 'Jewistan', and there's a feeling among many americans, jewish or not, that the middle east consists of nothing but evil people and israel(oversimplification I know, but you get my point), so there's the whole 'with us or against us' thing some of you guys have.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 9:50:47 AM

Arpig

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quote:

They say they are our greatest ally, but they have never deployed troups to help in any war, they have never allowed the US to use their land for strategic bases.

They have offered, but the US has, wisely, refused the offer, as that would have inflammed local arab hatreds to an even greater degree

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 10:37:09 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Another thing Obama has done that I like.

He is pressing Israel to stop expanding settlements in the west bank. I wish that the first Bush would have followed through on this when he was president.
But Jewish lawmakers and Jewish PACs in washington have so much power that we are unable to use any influence to get Israel to do as we ask.

1967 ~ Arab-Isreal war. The Arabs attacked Isreal, less than 20 years after they became a nation. Isreal kicked their asses in a week. They took some land, a rather customary thing to happen. You loose the war, you loose territory. The Arab world has not stopped attacking Isreal. They continually violate the treaties. Isreal HAS given some of the land back, and then the Arab world violated the peace treaties again. It is COMPLETELY ridiculous to expect Isreal to go along with this latest treaty proposal, which is not really a peace treaty at all, but instead a 10 year cease fire that would serve to weaken Isreal and strengthen the Palestinians, so that the hostilities could continue.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 12:17:34 PM

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If you please... Explain how a cease fire would weaken Israel.
Is it if they give an inch the Palestinians will take a mile?
Or is it if they stop taking each inch of land they can get, the Palestinians, God forbid, might actually not hate them so much.

If a cease fire will weaken Israel, will a pull out of Iraq weaken the US?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Another thing Obama has done that I like.

He is pressing Israel to stop expanding settlements in the west bank. I wish that the first Bush would have followed through on this when he was president.
But Jewish lawmakers and Jewish PACs in washington have so much power that we are unable to use any influence to get Israel to do as we ask.

1967 ~ Arab-Isreal war. The Arabs attacked Isreal, less than 20 years after they became a nation. Isreal kicked their asses in a week. They took some land, a rather customary thing to happen. You loose the war, you loose territory. The Arab world has not stopped attacking Isreal. They continually violate the treaties. Isreal HAS given some of the land back, and then the Arab world violated the peace treaties again. It is COMPLETELY ridiculous to expect Isreal to go along with this latest treaty proposal, which is not really a peace treaty at all, but instead a 10 year cease fire that would serve to weaken Isreal and strengthen the Palestinians, so that the hostilities could continue.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 12:24:50 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

If you please... Explain how a cease fire would weaken Israel.
Is it if they give an inch the Palestinians will take a mile?
Or is it if they stop taking each inch of land they can get, the Palestinians, God forbid, might actually not hate them so much.

If a cease fire will weaken Israel, will a pull out of Iraq weaken the US?

Because of the other terms of the "10 year peace treaty." Setting millons of hostile Arabs in their midst. Narrowing Isreal to 8 miles wide. And giving Hamas a decade to arm the Palestinians.

They have repeatedly given land back to the Palestinians.

Since 1967 they have taken no more land. Of which they won by right of conquest in a war that THEY DID NOT START.

Hamas STILL refuses to accept Isreal's existance.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 12:28:16 PM

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Your arguments have nothing to do with a ceasefire.
Those things will happen whether there is a ceasefire or not.
I would think Israel would strive for peace with one hand, while they hold the bomb in the other.
What can it hurt? The Palestinians are holding rocks.
By the way, Iran is funding Hamas 100%. Would you go after them too? If not, why?
And... you didn't answer if pulling out of Iraq would make the US weaker.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 12:29:53 PM

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And... you missed the entire point of the post.
Why do we continue to fund Israel, when they have no intent to follow along with what we ask of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Another thing Obama has done that I like.

He is pressing Israel to stop expanding settlements in the west bank. I wish that the first Bush would have followed through on this when he was president.
But Jewish lawmakers and Jewish PACs in washington have so much power that we are unable to use any influence to get Israel to do as we ask.

1967 ~ Arab-Isreal war. The Arabs attacked Isreal, less than 20 years after they became a nation. Isreal kicked their asses in a week. They took some land, a rather customary thing to happen. You loose the war, you loose territory. The Arab world has not stopped attacking Isreal. They continually violate the treaties. Isreal HAS given some of the land back, and then the Arab world violated the peace treaties again. It is COMPLETELY ridiculous to expect Isreal to go along with this latest treaty proposal, which is not really a peace treaty at all, but instead a 10 year cease fire that would serve to weaken Isreal and strengthen the Palestinians, so that the hostilities could continue.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 12:30:56 PM

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I think you need to follow that up with a link and some proof...
How could it possibly make them hate us even more??????

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

They say they are our greatest ally, but they have never deployed troups to help in any war, they have never allowed the US to use their land for strategic bases.

They have offered, but the US has, wisely, refused the offer, as that would have inflammed local arab hatreds to an even greater degree

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 12:48:08 PM

Aylee

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Yeah, because the 1993 Oslo accords worked out SO well for Isreal.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 2:42:01 PM

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Sometimes, it's better to do something just because it's the right thing to do. Not because we, as a nation, will get something out of it.

Consider these areas...

Darfur
Somalia
Sierra Leone

Should we stop aid to these areas as well?

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 3:03:07 PM

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US sends Israel more "aid" than any other country. Consider here the need of Israelis, who have one of the top 20 economies in the world, and Sudan (Darfur) where childern are dying from malnourishment.

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

here is an interesting chart.

Israel and Egypt are #1 and #2 in getting foreign aid from the US... Egypt #2 after signing the peace treaty with Israel.
Israel and Egypt get more than double all of Africa combined.
Do they deserve it???

PS... this does not include loan guarantees to Israel.

< Message edited by MissSepphora1 -- 5/29/2009 3:04:27 PM >

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 3:17:50 PM

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When Israel became a free and independent country, keeping in mind that it was a warzone for many years, was it in an impoverished condition, or was it self-sufficient?

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 3:22:16 PM

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and even though it is no longer impoverished, it still deserves more than it got back then?

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 3:59:20 PM

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Do you think it could be possible that the US is paying for "services" that are not disclosed to the general public. There are not many countries in that area of this planet that the United States is on friendly terms with. If normal people can buy friends, does this mean countries (the US & others) can not?

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 4:52:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

1967 ~ Arab-Isreal war. The Arabs attacked Isreal,

Israel carried out a pre-emptive strike.

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RE: Obama and west bank settlements - 5/29/2009 5:32:29 PM

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Why exactly do we need Israel? What do they provide for us?
Did they train our guards at Abu Ghraib? Did they instruct our interrogators at Gitmo?
Did they provide the information that lead us into Iraq?
What has Israel actually done for us to be considered our friend?
What have they done worth more than 2 trillion dollars?

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