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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:12:35 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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In my opinion shooting the youth in the head in self-defence was justified. Pursuing the other criminal outside of the store was not justified. Shooting and killing the first criminal next, in my opinion was a deliberate murder by a trained and fearless, professional killer, who may have been hired for that very purpose.

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:13:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
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Coward? He confronted an armed assailant, so he did not avoid a dangerous situation. So that is just a personal attack.

In cold blood? That would indiacte dispassionate or without emotion, and it seemed pretty filled with emotion. So that is just spin, and a personal attack.

Assumption it is because of their race. Well you need to get a job with Sharpton.

Execution vigilante style? Possibly, and that is where this guy will likely be held accountable. Unless something surfaces that shows the assailant was still a threat after being put to the ground, then the guy crossed the line.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Coward.Cold blooded murderer.But it was a bad guy he killed,brown even...Fun ,fun...

Enjoy your snuff film, Rich?


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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:27:01 PM   
DreamGoddess666


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I think he should get off with probation.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:27:30 PM   
PanthersMom


Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline
perps walk in with a gun, all bets are off.  they initiated, they get what they deserve.  i don't care what color they are, doesn't mean anything to me, i've got a mixed race family.  you pick up a gun you intend to kill, if you point it at someone you should expect them to shoot back.  that's how i was raised.  and yes, one of my dad's colleagues on the force was shot in the head, the bullet went around his skull and out the same hole, so it is possible to be shot in the head and still a threat.  doctors said he was the luckiest cop they'd ever met, they expected the worst when they got that call.
PM

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:39:41 PM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

Granted the other youth should face charges of armed robbery, but to me it would appear that the robbery was over when he fled the pharmacy.


Just an FYI, Stella. In the US, if someone dies during the commission of a felony, even if there was no intent to kill, that's considered murder here so even though the guy fled the scene, didn't pull the trigger that killed the kid, he'll will be facing a murder charge.



      Bita is right.   He set the chain of events into motion. 


with respect, this is most unsatisfactory; by this reasoning, the person who supplied the gun whereby the robbery might be attempted should also face a murder charge.

and thence, an argument that at least some will feel worthy I'm sure, the owner of the pharmacy could also be indicted - no pharmacy, no robbery, no death.

whilst motivations must be considered, the idea of taking circumstances beyond those immediately preceding renders none of us criminally culpable - ie the defence need only state circumstances to justify any action as lawful and/or due to another's actions who ought to face any charges. similarly, the prosecution can bring into indictment all and sundry. unless one is to limit such association very strictly, it becomes ridiculous.

"joint enterprise" would certainly indict and convict the surviving robber of armed robbery, but to hold someone responsible for (potentially) murder, who had no influence over the shooter - since he had fled - is becoming ridiculous.

E

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:40:13 PM   
BitaTruble


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The pharmacy had also been robbed before and was in a high crime area, so that could have effected Ersland's mindset. Also, Ersland said the kid was trying to get up, so that could also go to point to mindset at the time he pulled the trigger and whether or not he acted in a reasonable manner to the circumstance. As Rule pointed out, he was retired Air Force, so does that training kick in and you go on auto-pilot when confronted as he was?

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 2:47:17 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


with respect, this is most unsatisfactory; by this reasoning, the person who supplied the gun whereby the robbery might be attempted should also face a murder charge.

and thence, an argument that at least some will feel worthy I'm sure, the owner of the pharmacy could also be indicted - no pharmacy, no robbery, no death.

whilst motivations must be considered, the idea of taking circumstances beyond those immediately preceding renders none of us criminally culpable - ie the defence need only state circumstances to justify any action as lawful and/or due to another's actions who ought to face any charges. similarly, the prosecution can bring into indictment all and sundry. unless one is to limit such association very strictly, it becomes ridiculous.

"joint enterprise" would certainly indict and convict the surviving robber of armed robbery, but to hold someone responsible for (potentially) murder, who had no influence over the shooter - since he had fled - is becoming ridiculous.

E

It might be unsatisfactory, Lady E, but that's the current law and that's what he will be tried under. But for the action of the alleged robberers, no death would have occured and that's the criteria.

No death would have occurred just because a gun was made.

No death would have occurred just because the pharmacy was there.

Death only occurred because the robbers chose to commit a felony, in this case robbery with the aggravating circumstance that a deadly weapon was used.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 4:35:28 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK



What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.



....er......personally, i'm rather fond of the rule of law. Vigilante justice has a bad habit of hitting the erong target.....

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RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 5:05:39 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK


What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.



I quite agree.. I hear that people in the States are so afraid of crime that the majority of them feel very passionate about the right to bear arms and a considerable majority of them favour the death penalty too.

It's not right. It's bad enough people being rude enough to point their fingers at you, let alone their guns. I mean, you wouldn't go down to Walmart armed with a gun to do your shopping, would you? Not least if you were in your right mind. So why go to a drug store and start waving a gun around? I mean, looking at the video, there wasn't even a queue and nobody was waiting to collect their prescriptions.

Things have got too far I tell you. These folks were lucky it wasn't the Middle East, else they would have had their bits chopped off them (without anaesthetic) and then likely or not they would have been strung up in the central market square.

However I do think it's high time the criminal justice system was sorted out once and for all. That's why I think the whole lot of them should be sent to a penal colony for 75 years hard labour - the lot of them. That'll teach them to start messing about with guns.

You see you can't get round the fact that guns are designed to kill, so even by owning one well that makes you a potential criminal. Enough of this pussy footing about, this soft soap approach, this political correctness, if you commit a crime, any sort of a crime, then it's clear that you need to be resocialized to become a better citizen, and 50 years hard labour in a penal colony to me is the way to go.

There's no two ways about it, the justice system has to get much tougher.


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 5:43:54 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?



          Pointing a gun at someone in attempt at robbery seems like a pretty good line to me, Ken...

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 6:00:44 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?



         Pointing a gun at someone in attempt at robbery seems like a pretty good line to me, Ken...


.....i know that gitmo has made it tricky for some to accept the idea of due process, but i thought that was reserved for non-nationals. Apparently there's this thing called the Constitution...popular so i'm told......it recklessly suggests that all US citizens have rights......maybe it needs changing.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 6:30:43 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK


What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.



I quite agree.. I hear that people in the States are so afraid of crime that the majority of them feel very passionate about the right to bear arms and a considerable majority of them favour the death penalty too.

It's not right. It's bad enough people being rude enough to point their fingers at you, let alone their guns. I mean, you wouldn't go down to Walmart armed with a gun to do your shopping, would you? Not least if you were in your right mind. So why go to a drug store and start waving a gun around? I mean, looking at the video, there wasn't even a queue and nobody was waiting to collect their prescriptions.


Back when I did personal security, I carried two firearms at all times, except where prohibited by law. This also included Wal Mart, the grocery store, the corner store, etc.

You are setting yourself up as the moral judge to state something is emphatically wrong, when there are so many mitigating factors. I am sure the same has been done to you, about something else, and the person doing it to you felt morally superior. That is how you are coming off here, in my perception at least.

quote:


Things have got too far I tell you. These folks were lucky it wasn't the Middle East, else they would have had their bits chopped off them (without anaesthetic) and then likely or not they would have been strung up in the central market square.


The culture you speak of operates with a different morality, and what you describe is not seen as bad by many that live in those areas.

quote:


However I do think it's high time the criminal justice system was sorted out once and for all. That's why I think the whole lot of them should be sent to a penal colony for 75 years hard labour - the lot of them. That'll teach them to start messing about with guns.


What you suggest sounds good on the surface, but you will never get the criminal justice system sorted out. This means that you may well be sending innocent people away to a life of torture (if you know what a penal colony actually is).

quote:


You see you can't get round the fact that guns are designed to kill, so even by owning one well that makes you a potential criminal. Enough of this pussy footing about, this soft soap approach, this political correctness, if you commit a crime, any sort of a crime, then it's clear that you need to be resocialized to become a better citizen, and 50 years hard labour in a penal colony to me is the way to go.


Driving makes you a potential criminal. Guns are designed to kill, and with proper training are only used in life or death situations, or where the potential of great bodily harm is evident. Resocialized? You mean like brain washing and reprogramming? 50 years in a penal colony just creates a more hardened criminal that will have less regard for human life, and not more regard.

quote:


There's no two ways about it, the justice system has to get much tougher.



Crime is fought best with education and better living conditions.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 6:33:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Usually it is felonies that cause a loss of rights. Anytime that you directly threaten someone with death or grave bodily injury, with a deadly weapon, you lose your right to life. People say this is the area the cops should handle, but that is after you are dead.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

I understand the discourse of this thread.

What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.

MstrPBK
St Paul, MN USA

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 6:48:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?



        Pointing a gun at someone in attempt at robbery seems like a pretty good line to me, Ken...


.....i know that gitmo has made it tricky for some to accept the idea of due process, but i thought that was reserved for non-nationals. Apparently there's this thing called the Constitution...popular so i'm told......it recklessly suggests that all US citizens have rights......maybe it needs changing.



         Way to slide in the off-topic jab, Phil!  Nicely executed.  However, pointing a gun at someone with criminal intent amounts to a waiver of Miranda, at least within a certain time window. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 7:00:33 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offenses? Drug possession?


Armed robbery.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 8:02:45 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK


What bothers me is the concept that thieves (, thugs, and scammers) have any rights a at all.



I quite agree.. I hear that people in the States are so afraid of crime that the majority of them feel very passionate about the right to bear arms and a considerable majority of them favour the death penalty too.

It's not right. It's bad enough people being rude enough to point their fingers at you, let alone their guns. I mean, you wouldn't go down to Walmart armed with a gun to do your shopping, would you? Not least if you were in your right mind. So why go to a drug store and start waving a gun around? I mean, looking at the video, there wasn't even a queue and nobody was waiting to collect their prescriptions.


Back when I did personal security, I carried two firearms at all times, except where prohibited by law. This also included Wal Mart, the grocery store, the corner store, etc.

You are setting yourself up as the moral judge to state something is emphatically wrong, when there are so many mitigating factors. I am sure the same has been done to you, about something else, and the person doing it to you felt morally superior. That is how you are coming off here, in my perception at least.

quote:


Things have got too far I tell you. These folks were lucky it wasn't the Middle East, else they would have had their bits chopped off them (without anaesthetic) and then likely or not they would have been strung up in the central market square.


The culture you speak of operates with a different morality, and what you describe is not seen as bad by many that live in those areas.

quote:


However I do think it's high time the criminal justice system was sorted out once and for all. That's why I think the whole lot of them should be sent to a penal colony for 75 years hard labour - the lot of them. That'll teach them to start messing about with guns.


What you suggest sounds good on the surface, but you will never get the criminal justice system sorted out. This means that you may well be sending innocent people away to a life of torture (if you know what a penal colony actually is).

quote:


You see you can't get round the fact that guns are designed to kill, so even by owning one well that makes you a potential criminal. Enough of this pussy footing about, this soft soap approach, this political correctness, if you commit a crime, any sort of a crime, then it's clear that you need to be resocialized to become a better citizen, and 50 years hard labour in a penal colony to me is the way to go.


Driving makes you a potential criminal. Guns are designed to kill, and with proper training are only used in life or death situations, or where the potential of great bodily harm is evident. Resocialized? You mean like brain washing and reprogramming? 50 years in a penal colony just creates a more hardened criminal that will have less regard for human life, and not more regard.

quote:


There's no two ways about it, the justice system has to get much tougher.



Crime is fought best with education and better living conditions.


Apologies for the rubbish attempt at irony.


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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 8:38:55 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?



          Pointing a gun at someone in attempt at robbery seems like a pretty good line to me, Ken...

So if I claim you pointed a gun at me and demanded money it is ok for me to shoot you? Really?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 9:06:43 PM   
MakeMeSmile4U


Posts: 710
Joined: 4/27/2008
From: South Florida
Status: offline
I've heard nothing about this story except what I've seen and read here....the newspaper story and the video that started this thread.  I think there's one more item that needs to be reviewed before I can form my own opinion...  I want to hear the 911 call.
 
I'm a 911 operator, so maybe its more important to me than to others, but I know for a fact that sometimes the tape can be very revealing.
 
Just something to think about.

_____________________________

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 9:23:25 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Do you mean sarcasm? Your post sounded pretty convincing, but then agains good sarcasm could. Taken in that light, I agree with what you wrote, since sarcasm is opposite meaning.


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Apologies for the rubbish attempt at irony.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Pharmacist shoots robber - charged with murder - 5/30/2009 9:32:11 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And where do you think the line should be drawn? Which crimes should result in the loss of all rights? Jaywalking? Traffic offences? Drug possesion?



         Pointing a gun at someone in attempt at robbery seems like a pretty good line to me, Ken...

So if I claim you pointed a gun at me and demanded money it is ok for me to shoot you? Really?



        Got it on video?  Got the gun that was in my hand?  A couple witnesses?  Sounds a bit like a Law and Order plot, but you might just get away with it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 40
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