So, has the goal been achieved ?

So, has the goal been achieved ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 5:51:35 AM)
A quotation from myself on the Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture thread, which, as Orion the Wolf suggested may lead off topic, maybe it can be discussed here, in it's own seperate thread ; quote: Aneirin ; But as to those terrorists that initially woke up the Western World to what has now become a war with the West sending their loved ones to fight and die in the supposed home lands of terrorism, what was their initial aim, and did they achieve it, perhaps they did, for we all now suspect our own countyrmen of being the enemy, anti terror laws prove this. The idea of one nation being looking forward has changed to one nation, looking everywhere, even at our closest neighbours. If they sought chaos in the western world, they have largely achieved it, old laws and ideals have been consigned to past. quote : Orion the Wolf ; I think this may be better in it's own topic, so I will not respond and derail this topic . So, what are your thoughts ?

Arpig -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 7:58:39 AM)
I don't think they have acheived their goals. I honestly think they want to establish "Islamic" regimes throughout the muslim world, not even the conservative Saudi regime is "islamic" enough for them. Once this purification of the islamic world has been achieved, I think they believe that they will be able to convert the rest of the world, thus ushering some sort of "golden age"

philosophy -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 8:54:07 AM)
...i think short term, maybe medium term goals have been achieved. Arpig is correct as regards their long term goal. However, in their terms, they wanted to show the world that the USA was not the shining beacon of hope that it presents itself to be. Gitmo, all by itself, does that. In my opinion, that was a case of a great country shooting itself in the foot.

Arpig -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 9:13:03 AM)
True enough Philo, the actions of the US (and Canada as well, we are treating our detainees rather shamefully, refusing them rights that should be extended to them under the doctrines of "Effective Control" http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Detainees+should+have+rights/1637510/story.html) have somewhat eroded whatever moral supperiority we may have had when this mess began.

MarsBonfire -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 9:33:37 AM)
OBL was quoted as saying, "I want to see the United States become a shadow of it's former self." Considering that Bush reacted by reducing our rights to free assembly (free speech zones) our ability to discuss things openly (warantless wiretapping) began kidnapping people off the street (extraordinary rentitions) and torturing them, (waterboarding, electrified scrotums, tie 'em up and allow dogs to attack) not for any information they felt they needed , but to get them to admit to a link between Iraq and Al Queda when there was none.... ... I'd say he got a pretty good running start at it.

Politesub53 -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 11:13:07 AM)
I think OBL wanted to get America to retaliate, and thereby get a huge groundswell of public sympathy and support in Muslim Countries. Long term he failed to achieve this.

awmslave -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 11:45:45 AM)
I see Islamic terrorism just as a part of post "cold war" world. Closing Gitmo or opening another does not really make much difference. US is becoming increasingly weaker because of its ideology is failing and the government is there to preserve the system not to change it. Islamic terrorism is like attack on Roman Empire by barbarians that had effect when empire became corrupt and weak. Let us hope US domination will not be followed by Dark Ages.

Aneirin -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 2:29:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: awmslave I see Islamic terrorism just as a part of post "cold war" world. Closing Gitmo or opening another does not really make much difference. US is becoming increasingly weaker because of its ideology is failing and the government is there to preserve the system not to change it. Islamic terrorism is like attack on Roman Empire by barbarians that had effect when empire became corrupt and weak. Let us hope US domination will not be followed by Dark Ages. Interesting comparison, for we know throughought history, empires grew to brightness and died. The Uk was a recent empire with ownership of near half of the world, look at it now. Still big ideas and noise, but not the power to compete. Even our united kingdom is breaking up with devolution. Maybe the U.S. is the next victim of it all. Who knows a time may come where the U.S. cares more about it's own people and how they fare, than stamping it's para boot in other parts of the world.

MarsBonfire -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 2:34:30 PM)
I imagine that if this century is dominated by China, it undoubtably will be a new dark age.

MissSepphora1 -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 7:47:43 PM)
So... they sent planes into our buildings, killing americans, knowing that somehow they themselves would end up being tortured at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? Damn... I'm gonna call up Sheik Khalid and ask him for the lottery numbers!!! He's one damn good psychic. quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...i think short term, maybe medium term goals have been achieved. Arpig is correct as regards their long term goal. However, in their terms, they wanted to show the world that the USA was not the shining beacon of hope that it presents itself to be. Gitmo, all by itself, does that. In my opinion, that was a case of a great country shooting itself in the foot.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 8:38:19 PM)
Who is they? You mean them ragheads? Those savage, brown skinned butchers, that are no more than savages, and should be wiped off the face of the Earth? We should just nuke em all to make sure we get the right one's. Yee Haw!!!! quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 So... they sent planes into our buildings, killing americans, knowing that somehow they themselves would end up being tortured at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? Damn... I'm gonna call up Sheik Khalid and ask him for the lottery numbers!!! He's one damn good psychic. quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...i think short term, maybe medium term goals have been achieved. Arpig is correct as regards their long term goal. However, in their terms, they wanted to show the world that the USA was not the shining beacon of hope that it presents itself to be. Gitmo, all by itself, does that. In my opinion, that was a case of a great country shooting itself in the foot.

MissSepphora1 -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 8:54:43 PM)
Wow... those are some ugly words there... very offensive. Brown skinned butchers and ragheads? Isn't that a bit over the top? quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Who is they? You mean them ragheads? Those savage, brown skinned butchers, that are no more than savages, and should be wiped off the face of the Earth? We should just nuke em all to make sure we get the right one's. Yee Haw!!!! quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 So... they sent planes into our buildings, killing americans, knowing that somehow they themselves would end up being tortured at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? Damn... I'm gonna call up Sheik Khalid and ask him for the lottery numbers!!! He's one damn good psychic. quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...i think short term, maybe medium term goals have been achieved. Arpig is correct as regards their long term goal. However, in their terms, they wanted to show the world that the USA was not the shining beacon of hope that it presents itself to be. Gitmo, all by itself, does that. In my opinion, that was a case of a great country shooting itself in the foot.

GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (5/31/2009 9:11:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Who is they? You mean them ragheads? Those savage, brown skinned butchers, that are no more than savages, and should be wiped off the face of the Earth? We should just nuke em all to make sure we get the right one's. Yee Haw!!!! I don't like it that you want to kill my grandmothers for something some radical stupid obessed piece of shit men did I don't want to nuke all you Georgia peach boys who say in their profiles.."don't approach me unless you are polite and that they like to "pass on their knowledge.".. yet come forth and spew poison about families they DO NOT KNOW.. DO you shoot all bears when a buddy is mauled by one? ALSO I am part APACHE..shit...so the only good Indian is a dead one...?? oh wait...there is Congo in me too..hmm bush monkey me is glad she is not Chinese too.. or living near you.. The delightful GOR men I know do not act like.... this...?? GQ

philosophy -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 12:59:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 So... they sent planes into our buildings, killing americans, knowing that somehow they themselves would end up being tortured at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? ...unlikely. Suicide bombers rarely tend to consider themselves liable to interrogation afterwards. However, did they think that there was a possibility that the USA would over-react? That civil liberties would be suspended in a knee jerk reaction? That the USA would appear on the world stage to be happy to trade human rights for what they hoped would be security? Yup.......and it was what they hoped for. http://www.werenotafraid.com/ .....this is what they feared would happen but they got lucky.

MissSepphora1 -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 6:38:56 AM)
the planner of the 9/11 attacks IS in prison, and HAS been tortured by the US. the one who was waterboarded repeatedly, yea, that was him. so whether or not he planned to get captured, he did. now... for the other thing. just when i thought i'd heard every crazy theory about 9/11, here is the craziest. all of the terrorists got together and thought... how could we make the US look bad? I know... we'll bomb them repeatedly. we'll kill soldiers in embassies, on ships, in nightclubs. we'll kill over and over for decades. And then, when they elect a republican president, we'll fly planes into the world trade center and kill thousands. now we have to wait until there is a republican president to pull of the finale, so that they will overreact, create a hidden prison camp, and torture us over and over. that will really make the US look bad, won't it!!!! I can hear the applause now. Wow... that's one brilliant plan. And it worked so wonderfully!!! quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 So... they sent planes into our buildings, killing americans, knowing that somehow they themselves would end up being tortured at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? ...unlikely. Suicide bombers rarely tend to consider themselves liable to interrogation afterwards. However, did they think that there was a possibility that the USA would over-react? That civil liberties would be suspended in a knee jerk reaction? That the USA would appear on the world stage to be happy to trade human rights for what they hoped would be security? Yup.......and it was what they hoped for. http://www.werenotafraid.com/ .....this is what they feared would happen but they got lucky.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 6:42:57 AM)
You do not know about sarcasm and parody, do you? quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 Wow... those are some ugly words there... very offensive. Brown skinned butchers and ragheads? Isn't that a bit over the top?

MissSepphora1 -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 6:43:42 AM)
I guess the Palestinians and Hezbullah are doing the same things with Israel too, huh? We can keep kidnapping their soldiers, shooting rockets into their country, blowing ourselves up on their buses. and then when they overreact and kill thousands of women and children, they will look bad! and by the way, do you ever notice how when Israel strikes, somehow the men go into hiding and leave the women and children to die as marytrs?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 7:22:56 AM)
Actually it is a tactic they have devised to use civilians as shields. This is to put whoever responds to them in a bad light with the international community, and distracts from what these militants are doing. This tactic is universally condemned by almost all of the international community, but I would like to see more of the Muslim community publically condemn these attacks. Many in the Muslim community are afraid to do so, or they may be painted as assisting Israel or the West. There are several good books that explain the cultural and politcal scenery of that region, and that this kind of conflict has been going on for thousands of years in that region. quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 I guess the Palestinians and Hezbullah are doing the same things with Israel too, huh? We can keep kidnapping their soldiers, shooting rockets into their country, blowing ourselves up on their buses. and then when they overreact and kill thousands of women and children, they will look bad! and by the way, do you ever notice how when Israel strikes, somehow the men go into hiding and leave the women and children to die as marytrs?

MissSepphora1 -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 7:31:09 AM)
wow... the international community has been around for thousands of years? has palestine been trying to make israel look bad for that long? i guess it didn't work. quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Actually it is a tactic they have devised to use civilians as shields. This is to put whoever responds to them in a bad light with the international community, and distracts from what these militants are doing. This tactic is universally condemned by almost all of the international community, but I would like to see more of the Muslim community publically condemn these attacks. Many in the Muslim community are afraid to do so, or they may be painted as assisting Israel or the West. There are several good books that explain the cultural and politcal scenery of that region, and that this kind of conflict has been going on for thousands of years in that region. quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 I guess the Palestinians and Hezbullah are doing the same things with Israel too, huh? We can keep kidnapping their soldiers, shooting rockets into their country, blowing ourselves up on their buses. and then when they overreact and kill thousands of women and children, they will look bad! and by the way, do you ever notice how when Israel strikes, somehow the men go into hiding and leave the women and children to die as marytrs?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: So, has the goal been achieved ? (6/1/2009 7:57:19 AM)
Feigning being obtuse may actually make some believe it quote: ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1 wow... the international community has been around for thousands of years? has palestine been trying to make israel look bad for that long? i guess it didn't work.

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