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"The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 8:50:09 AM

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I recently found this post over on Maymay's journal and it really struck a chord with me. I thought I'd link to it, because not only will it probably strike a chord with many other submissive men, but might also prove interesting to Dominant women, too. It's something I've been trying to articulate for a while, but was unable to find the words to do so. Maymay has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

-- Kye

RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 9:02:37 AM

Arpig

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I didn't realise there were rules

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 9:14:32 AM

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I think there are many social, psychological and biologically-based reasons why men tend to pursue - thus, do the flirting. But Maymay came up with a list of flirting techniques. They are as follows:

Compliment someone on something specific such as one’s jewelry or choice of attire.
Move into personal space with a touch, gesture, or other motion, such as by offering a massage or initiating snuggling.
Buy an ephemeral or otherwise insignificant gift such as flowers or a card.
Capitalize on a subtle opportunity to communicate positively such as remembering a birthday or other personally important date or time mark.
Present oneself with particularly physically alluring traits such as specific, perhaps revealing, styles of dress.
Behave in ways observed to produce positive feelings such as noticing personal specifics (often that others have not) such as what one’s likes and dislikes are.
Offer to perform some useful task, such as fixing a broken object (shelf, computer error (I’m really good at that fixing computer error thing)).

What struck me about this list was that women - vanilla women, that is - do all of these sorts of things (well, minus the ones to do with jewellery and computer-fixing, maybe).

Women do flirt and, more generally, pursue. It's just that they generally don't do it the same way as men do.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 9:15:01 AM

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lol, I think "rules" refers more to the unspoken expectations of flirting as opposed to any solid set of guidelines.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 9:32:47 AM

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Thanks, this was a great find! There were definitely some chords resonating here. To this day, (decades later) I still find myself wondering why I am not approached more often, despite making myself attractive, at least in my mind.

My ongoing fantasy expectation is that a woman will approach me while I am in my car. So I gaze, stare and smile while cruising around in my sporty little Olds Alero, with the radio on loud and me singing along. I've been thinking about this for years and I've never once made an acquaintance in this way.

yours

One of my other tendencies is to overcompensate. I was on a retreat, and spoke with a woman who commented on my bottle of water. I asked if she wanted one, and when she replied affirmatively, I brought six back from my room for her.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 10:39:03 AM

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The most notable paragraph in that read, for me, was:

quote:

I don’t want to pursue. It’s not because I’m lazy or because I’m unwilling to find partners. It’s because pursuing feels wrong, it’s not fun, it’s not how I want to flirt. Pursuing feels like fucking, it feels stereotypically male, saddled with stereotypically male expectations, expectations that I’m not willing to accept in a sexual relationship because carrying them out doesn’t satisfy me sexually. Pursuing feels like fucking, and attracting feels like getting fucked. When I have sex, I want to get fucked.

I call this watering hole crap-shoot of romance "the dance". Both parties must know the steps well to avoid toe trampling. Society, Emily Post's society, has a default description of the dance. And yes, it has men on the prowl... as the pursuer... as the passage said, fucking.

I blame Disney. The cycle is continued because it works so damned well. It works well because people allow it to. People are bred to believe a man chases a woman. I read a disgusting smutbook regarding this. (The book was quite plain for a romance novel, but the premise made me ill). A bored housewife, married to a rich, powerful, busy lawyer, starts taking first class airline trips around the world, leaving him post cards of where she'll be going. He chases.

I have a term for the sort of woman who responds to that with "Aww! That's so romantic!" Kodak-moment-girl. The sort who wants to live out ever Norman Rockwell painting. The sort who expects her significant other to be in the rain, blasting a stereo of "their song", at midnight after a fight. There's nothing wrong with this, per se, but it's the force that keeps "the pursuing male" stereotype alive. It's not men. We'd change in an instant if another strategy worked. But we're too hungry to try and change things first. We're rats. We find a way into the kitchen, no matter what.

And right now, the girls respond well to alpha male douche bags. Tail has never been so ample as when I was a wolf. And if I'm a wolf, you're (the general you, here meaning "object of man's attraction") meat.

Now that's getting laid. Finding a mate could be different... It's slightly more civil. Only slightly... Only slightly...

There are, of course, exceptions. Some women see through this veiled attempt at dancing, and just want to know the person. Some women are aware of what they want, and seek it in a mate. *chuckles at the thought of anyone knowing what a woman truly wants*. What I mean is sometimes, yes, a woman will respond to the "You can fuck me all you want" submissive approach. Honestly, with Disney teaching girls that men are pursuers, and the rest of society reinforcing that... I'd expect to see that person get passed over 9 times out of 10.

Submissive attraction is a great way to buy a nice piece of land in "The Friend Zone." But sometimes it could work.

As a matter of progress, I do believe it should change. I think men and women should not have a dance to meet. I think individuality should count most... But we're animals. We're no better than wolves or lions or queer birds. We have societal (and VERY likely natural) safeguards to ensure the best DNA gets right of first refusal.

Personally... I'm a huge fan of the Klingon dating method, as described by Worf in Star Trek: TNG.

"Women roar... and they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you... [the man] reads love poetry...He ducks a lot. Or go to her door, beg like a human."
Worf explains dating, video.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 11:03:24 AM

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Very interesting article indeed. I don't know how it works for other dominant women, but when it comes to flirtation, I have always been the pursuer, in pretty much every relationship. I was raised in a very conservative family with three older siblings (we all have successful relationships) and one of the "rules" my mother taught me (and sister set the example of) was: Never chase boys. This was drilled into my head. When we were old enough to date, back in the day when everyone shared one phone line in a house, I was not "allowed to call boys." When I confessed to my mother I had a crush, around age 15 or whatever, the advice I was given was about flirtation, but mostly about posturing and allowing HIM to pursue me. It felt very, very awkward to me, but hell, it was working for my sister, she was the most popular girl in school.

My brothers both were pursuers and did very well with girls and had nice relationships. I took the position of observer in high school as I felt the games were silly anyway. By the time I was 18, I decided I didn't care who was supposed to "chase" - and I never looked back.

If I found a man attractive, I flirted with him. But I still took my mother's advice and never "chased" him. I made it very clear I was interested, and allowed him to make the move of chivalry; show interest. What my mother was trying to teach me was not to pursue men who were not interested. Nothing is more unattractive, in the dating game, than someone needy or who is at your beck and call. I get that. But I liked to be the one to hold a smile and eye contact from across a crowded room, make the first initial contact, give a very appropriate compliment, and then, if he STILL wasn't getting the picture, say, "This is when you should ask for my phone number." And then if he didn't call - then I knew he wasn't interested - but I made sure I opened the door and made it clear I was interested in him.

This was also how I "found" submissive men (who didn't even know they were submissive)-- If I was the flirtatious aggressor in that role, a non-sub would try to pull back control during that process and there would be friction. I'd start with the across-the-room, clearly I am interested body language and eye contact. If he took the next step and in a FORWARD manner tried to initiate body contact or overly compensate for my aggressive flirting, I knew he'd be trouble later. If he, instead, was somewhat shocked, bewildered, flattered, overwhelmed, uncomfortable, then I'd know I had a catch.

I heard lines like this a lot from men I "picked up": "I have no idea what to do, this has never happened before," and I'd say "That's shocking to me, you're very attractive" (massive blushing would ensue). I found that men who were naturally ready to take the submissive role were also very, very humble, when most men, in initial courting stages, preferred to be guarded and macho.

By the time I was in my early 20s I could identify good "sub material" in a crowded room at any party or dance club just through eye contact and flirting, and at the same time brush off aggressors who were trying to pick me up. The flirting rules, for me, have always been reversed.

If other dominant women have had success by just waiting to be approached, I am not sure how that works. It also may explain why so fewer femdoms seemed to "date vanilla" (I did all the time - but I always managed to find the subs, they just didn't know they were sub, they labeled themselves "shy"). As soon as I realized I wanted to tie guys up to feed an inner hunger of mine, I realized I better figure out a way to find them, seduce them, and get them to agree without freaking them out, and find guys that would like it also. This was pre-Internet, so I just had to go with instinct.

Akasha

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 11:06:06 AM

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I confess that I did not read the article, but as far as pursuit goes---I am more than happy to make the first move. The first half-dozen moves, even! After that, he has to suit up. I am not going to do all the work of courting. If there is not reciprocal interest... NEXT!

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 11:28:03 AM

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"Women roar... and they hurl heavy objects..."

Ah! Most of the women I've approached must have been Klingons, then.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 1:02:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

"Women roar... and they hurl heavy objects..."

Ah! Most of the women I've approached must have been Klingons, then.

Duck, baby.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 3:36:04 PM

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A, if you don't mind my asking: do you still use those pick-up skills that you learned in your teens and twenties, or are they now redundant because of the Internet and meeting men through CM and similar sites?

I don't like to think that women who once acted that way with men in bars and at parties no longer bother because they've now found a more 'efficient' way of finding the sort of partner they want . . . .

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/31/2009 3:37:12 PM >

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 6:07:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I think there are many social, psychological and biologically-based reasons why men tend to pursue - thus, do the flirting. But Maymay came up with a list of flirting techniques. They are as follows:

Compliment someone on something specific such as one’s jewelry or choice of attire.

Move into personal space with a touch, gesture, or other motion, such as by offering a massage or initiating snuggling.

Buy an ephemeral or otherwise insignificant gift such as flowers or a card.

Capitalize on a subtle opportunity to communicate positively such as remembering a birthday or other personally important date or time mark.

Present oneself with particularly physically alluring traits such as specific, perhaps revealing, styles of dress.

Behave in ways observed to produce positive feelings such as noticing personal specifics (often that others have not) such as what one’s likes and dislikes are.

Offer to perform some useful task, such as fixing a broken object (shelf, computer error (I’m really good at that fixing computer error thing)).

What struck me about this list was that women - vanilla women, that is - do all of these sorts of things (well, minus the ones to do with jewellery and computer-fixing, maybe).

Women do flirt and, more generally, pursue. It's just that they generally don't do it the same way as men do.

Peon, I just want to mention I really like how you get to the core of an issue - strip down the complexities - and just get to what I consider more of the facts. Even though I'm a soft science (at best) kind of gal, I'll take a guess that I'd greatly respect your instruction in your area of expertise.

For myself and maybe it is because I tend to figure things out in my way given my orientation, I find this more a part of personality, then all these other obvious social and biological factors. Take me...(that was not another plug for a domme woman and a coffee date...but you know, it's always there until it happens...smile), I'm gay, feminine, submissive (I think for the most part) and do I pursue? You bet. But it depends on many factors.

To begin with, I am a person who will go after something I want. I would say watch out ladies I do have my charming moments...but also, I'm darn tired of the nonsense online and just recently, I've decided to back off. I am online all the time - my work, my interests - but I'm tired of pursuing and getting jerked around. I have consciously (literally last night) decided there is one woman - good thing she does not read these boards - that I'm so hot for that I will pursue her and hope that my natal chart is correct, that I have a certain amount of charisma because I want this to be the woman that darn it meets me in person.

Now this list...I do not consciously do things like this, but alas I end up doing such things, it's a part of again my nature/personality. I tend to hone in - because I'm interested, creative and I enjoy making women smile - on little details they might have mentioned along the way. Even if I had the means, it's never about expensive gifts, it's about being thoughtful. It's honestly not something I consciously do, it just is.

When it comes to touching, I am more conscious of that and I do it when it feels right. Do I do it for the response? Maybe, maybe not. I'm hoping for positive results but this is where I find a list like this silly. I just do things. I don't sit there and think, how will I get this oh my gosh my type sexy, blondie to notice I'm worth her time? Maybe I'm more confident in myself and who I am, but other then me being lame when I'm this attracted to someone, I'm interesting company. I seriously can talk to most any person in any setting so even when I feel shy, I get by.

So why is this a conscious - 'I am the pursuer, you are my prey' sort of thinking? I do wish a woman would do what I do, I actually have yet to meet a woman as - this sounds so egotistical - thoughtful as I am (not that they're not at all, just not in the same way) and I'd love it, but I don't hold it against her. It would be fun to be pursued too, but it's OK either way.

So is this because I'm a gay woman, fiercely independent and I have never played in the typical social pool of heterosexual dating? Perhaps. But I'd hope we've progressed enough socially that any woman that wants to pursue her interests and any man that doesn't feel comfortable doing this, could do just that. Aren't we a bit more evolved at this point?

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 6:21:44 PM

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Akasha, I know this isn't your interest here...but wow, I'd love a dominant woman to do just as you mentioned...well, that is somewhat how this whole bdsm interest of mine happened, with a surprisingly young, petite woman seducing me and being very aggressive. Completely floored me (her age and physical being).

It's very interesting that if there is one common thread I'm seeing (reading) with domme women is that many of you knew of these dominant feelings early on and acted upon them. Is it that it goes against typical social expectations? I wonder if that's why, for myself, I'm 'typically feminine' (other then being gay) in how I appear and my demeanor.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 7:20:26 PM

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I didn't read the entire article, and I haven't read all of the posts. I stopped reading right around where he starts justifying the reasons why he's 'different'.

Lets look at birds. Birds have very elaborate courtships where the male must impress the female he's interested in in order to further his genes. We see this throughout the animal kingdom. Males must impress females in order to breed. It's the way of nature and it hasn't changed for thousands of years.

The first thing that came to my mind while reading this article was 'If he's going against nature, it's just natural selection influencing him to not spread his genes.' It might not be scientific, but if you aren't 'programmed' like nature intended, then it means you aren't supposed to breed. It's not that shocking or earth shattering.

I realize men who feel like this deserve to be in happy, healthy relationships just like everyone else, and I realize there are women who are willing to be the pursuer where the man is not, but it's my opinion that his lack of initiative is natures way of telling him that his line stops here.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 7:26:18 PM

SomethingCatchy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: newtop

I didn't read the entire article, and I haven't read all of the posts. I stopped reading right around where he starts justifying the reasons why he's 'different'.

Lets look at birds. Birds have very elaborate courtships where the male must impress the female he's interested in in order to further his genes. We see this throughout the animal kingdom. Males must impress females in order to breed. It's the way of nature and it hasn't changed for thousands of years.

The first thing that came to my mind while reading this article was 'If he's going against nature, it's just natural selection influencing him to not spread his genes.' It might not be scientific, but if you aren't 'programmed' like nature intended, then it means you aren't supposed to breed. It's not that shocking or earth shattering.

I realize men who feel like this deserve to be in happy, healthy relationships just like everyone else, and I realize there are women who are willing to be the pursuer where the man is not, but it's my opinion that his lack of initiative is natures way of telling him that his line stops here.

Holy crap, this is exactly what I was about to say! *creepy*

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 8:14:16 PM

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Yes, the article is perfect and it nails the mentality of many submissive men and women perfectly. They somehow imagine that the "rules are different" for girls, and that to successfully find our partners and mate that all we have to do is sit on our asses with our eyes demurely lowered and wear pretty shoes.

Ugh. As if. Sounds like a great way to end up with the absolute dregs of the dating pool to me. Once all the people who are attractive, dynamic and interesting have been snapped up by people who were willing to get off their asses and show some initiative, you get to look up as all the rejects sidle up to you looking for someone with poor standards.

You ask me? The fantasy of complete passivity is a HUGE millstone for any person, male or female, to tie around their neck. I certainly "get" someone who doesn't want to be stereotypically male, who feels that pattern doesn't fit and who doesn't like the typical "guy guy" socialization. I'm not real fond of sexist male stereotypes myself. But that doesn't mean that adopting the absolute worst qualities of stereotypical women is the answer, either.

Speaking as someone who enjoys both women and men, I can say that completely passive people of either sex are just godawful to be around. And quite frankly, even when you can get past the initial stages and form a relationship, it's really quite exhausting and demoralizing to try and be a lover to a person like this. I have never liked women who couldn't flirt with me, express interest in my thoughts and well-being, compliment my good qualities, and who were so one-dimensional that they ALWAYS had to be fucked, never the one fucking. I find it equally unattractive in a man.

Being submissive is one thing. Being a narcissistic sexually and emotionally draining tar-baby vampire is another. It has nothing to do with sexism, in my opinion. It's about being with someone who makes me feel good. A guy who thinks and acts like the author of this article isn't the one for me--and no, I wouldn't like the way he wants to act any better if he had a vagina.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 8:41:04 PM

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quote:

You ask me? The fantasy of complete passivity is a HUGE millstone for any person, male or female, to tie around their neck.

Oh, I agree. I think anyone who thinks they can get away with complete passivity isn't worth bothering with - male/female/dominant/submissive... Flirting has to be a two-way street if anything is really going to evolve. I think the part of the post that struck a chord with me was the talk of reversing "traditional" gender expectations. I don't agree with everything Maymay says in his post, but I can get not feeling comfortable with forcing yourself to be a certain way when it's just not how you're wired.

I didn't agree with the whole "buying flirting books for women" bit, though. I don't want to be taught how to flirt in a gender-specific way; I just know what works for me and what makes me feel uncomfortable in my skin.

< Message edited by sodsta -- 5/31/2009 8:43:35 PM >

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 5/31/2009 9:10:23 PM

aidan

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I've read the article twice, and at first I thought "Yeah, I can kind of relate to that," and then I thought "Ehhh...*handwaves*"

I like being pursued, to be flirted with, to be the "prey", whatever. It is groovy and makes a guy feel good about himself. But I just as much enjoy being the initiating party. It's fun and, again, makes a guy feel good to have your lover accept your come-ons.

Looking back, I think the reason I fell into the passive-partner trap was because I had, on both conscious and unconscious levels, convinced myself that it was somehow wrong and degenerate to be aggressive/active/initiating/whatever. A woman had to give you express permission, had to come to you, or you were being a stereotypical patriarchal douche.

I'm glad to say I've gotten over such notions and I will gladly go into Mistress' office to start up some kissin' and bitin' and sexin'. Never looked back.

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 6/1/2009 11:21:03 AM

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I have no problem communicating assertively or even speaking to a male of interest first but I won't do all of the pursuing. As an Alpha female, a male needs to be able to hold his own with me and give me a reason to believe I'd be willing to toe down to him bieng Alpha to me (Or at least a strong relative partner) or he'll get run over.
Davan

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RE: "The rules of flirting are sexist and wrong" - 6/1/2009 11:48:43 AM

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quote:

: PeonForHer

I think there are many social, psychological and biologically-based reasons why men tend to pursue - thus, do the flirting. But Maymay came up with a list of flirting techniques. They are as follows:

Compliment someone on something specific such as one’s jewelry or choice of attire.

Move into personal space with a touch, gesture, or other motion, such as by offering a massage or initiating snuggling.

Buy an ephemeral or otherwise insignificant gift such as flowers or a card.

Capitalize on a subtle opportunity to communicate positively such as remembering a birthday or other personally important date or time mark.

Present oneself with particularly physically alluring traits such as specific, perhaps revealing, styles of dress.

Behave in ways observed to produce positive feelings such as noticing personal specifics (often that others have not) such as what one’s likes and dislikes are.

Offer to perform some useful task, such as fixing a broken object (shelf, computer error (I’m really good at that fixing computer error thing)).

What struck me about this list was that women - vanilla women, that is - do all of these sorts of things (well, minus the ones to do with jewellery and computer-fixing, maybe).

Women do flirt and, more generally, pursue. It's just that they generally don't do it the same way as men do.

quote:

LAgirlsub
Peon, I just want to mention I really like how you get to the core of an issue - strip down the complexities - and just get to what I consider more of the facts. Even though I'm a soft science (at best) kind of gal, I'll take a guess that I'd greatly respect your instruction in your area of expertise.

Thank you, LAgirlsub

Although, directly after I posted that comment, I found myself wondering exactly how I'd enumerate those different ways in which women and men 'pursue'. I only really know when a woman's showing interest because I start to feel awkward in a pleasant way. She just seems to be more friendly than I'd expect from someone who's not romantically interested, that's all. I guess if I were to be more specific: there'll be more touching, more 'encroachments into my body zone' and quite a few more smiles than otherwise.

I think that's really all I do myself, if I'm interested in a woman. In a sense it's a 'natural' kind of flirting - because you're just acting towards a particular person in a way that's concomitant with your feelings: you feel very friendly, so you act very friendly. Simple.

I remember once reading that men tend to "hunt" while women tend to arrange it so that they can be "caught". That's what made womens' kind of flirting different to that of men's: it had to be subtle because women could never let men believe that they, women, were 'easily caught'. All that seems old-fashioned now, though. I have a feeling that, more and more nowadays, men and women are going to flirt, 'pursue', or 'be caught', in similar ways: in roughly those 'naturally-more-friendly-than-usual' ways I mentioned.

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