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Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 4:28:55 AM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Utah
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Hello all....

As I read these (and other) forums, it never ceases to amaze me how people struggle to conform to some mythical standard of what equates being a Dom/me or sub/slave, etc.

I want to take a minute and dispell some Utopian myths of BDSM relationships (as I see them). Please feel free to comment on mine or add your own.

1) There is no Utopia where subs/slaves have no limits.

If you have absolutely no limits you are either insane or dillusional. Everyone has limits. Even Dom/mes. The best relationships are those in which limits are in harmony and so are no longer a factor.

2) There is no Utopia where Dom/mes are always right and noble.

We are human beings. We make mistakes. We stumble and sometimes fall short of ideals and make wrong decisions. As human we are fallable.

3) Slaves never disagree with their Master or Mistress.

I have yet to meet any human being on the planet that I didn't have a difference of opinion with over something. Because my slave surrenders to me does not mean I expect him to discard his common sense or echo only the views I allow him to have.
If I were to decide tomorrow that I want to use our life savings to buy corn puffs, I would expect my slave to challenge my decision based on what is best for US.

4) The subslave is really in control.
5) The Dom/me is really in control.

I grouped these last 2 together. The answer is "Yes".

Both parties have control and both parties have power. The dynamics of the relationship are known by how that power and control is directed. In a relationship all parties should be equally vested in each others happiness as well as their own. If any part breaks down power and control is a mute point.

OK Your turn

Ms Sandi

_____________________________

"The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love" Havelock Ellis The Project Gutenberg

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 4:55:15 AM

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You forgot an important one: Masters aren't magic nor are they endowed with superhuman powers or abilities. A successful D/s or M/s relationship is built on old fashion values, like communication and trust and hard work. because a D/s or M/s relationship IS a lot of hard work.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 5:17:09 AM

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Very good thread. I met my Dom online and we have spent the last 10 months working towards being together (next month finally!!) We have had to work very hard to make sure we are based in reality and not some fantasy of what we expect to be with each other. This lifestyle is new to us both and we want to jump in and start doing all sorts of D/s, but we know if we don't go slow and be patient with each other we will fail.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to MasterRobert1)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 5:31:31 AM

MysticalPhoenix

Posts: 212
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Kelloggsville, Vanilla County MI
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I look at as more fantasy vs reality, but Utopia does have a nice ring to it, UtahGoddess :)

I've got one:

Utopia: There is a true, real "way" of BDSM. Anyone who does anything different from that way is a fake, a wannabe, and someone to be shunned and reviled by those who follow the true path to BDSM enlightment.

There is no true, universal, real "way" of BDSM. BDSM is not based on dogma, as there is no governing body, no High Leader or Greater Deity who has passed down the 10 commandments of BDSM carved into the back of a slave. It is as individual as those who are involved in it. We must each find our own path to BDSM enlightenment. Some walk similar paths, some change their direction on occasion, others strike out in their own direction. But all paths are the right way-for the people on them.

Phoenix

_____________________________

---------------------------------------------------------
Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 5:39:27 AM

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The one that bugs me most isn't even one that gets aimed at me.

Fantasy: I lable myself Dom therefore every sub must automaticaly get on their knees to me and kiss my boots

Reality: come over with that attitude sunshine and any self respecting sub is going to tell you to shove your head back up your ass!

The no limits one that has already been mentioned is annoying too, people so wrapped up in fantasy lala land that they are never going to cope with reality... and in a worst case are going to put themselves in a very dangerous situation before realising what that reality actualy means.

(in reply to MysticalPhoenix)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 7:33:51 AM

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Hmmmm, a good head on her shoulders and beautiful too ! ! Well said Sandi.

_____________________________

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly ! !

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 8:12:06 AM

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I think the hardest one of those is number two...realising that my dom is still human. As obvious as it sounds, I really do put him on a pedistal a lot of the time. It's hard for me to always remember that he is human, that he forgets things and all.

(in reply to OscarHargraves)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 8:15:37 AM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Utopia does exist in most areas as does the Eleusinian Fields albeit for relitive short periods of time. Such places are what we make them. We decide what makes us happy and content when the conditions are met, we have Utopia.

As I see it what the delightfull OP is refering to is the Idyllic situations based on propogated mythology as to what thigs should be like and doomed to dissapointment. This mythology and such idyllic situations are the things which the wet dreams and wanking time of the boys are made of where as the Men will smile at the thought of the lifeatyle being so perfect and return to perfecting their own personal arena. It is essential to have attainable goals but it is also good to have the impossible dream... Some even reach that too.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to OscarHargraves)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 8:50:47 AM

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From: Texas
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quote:

1) There is no Utopia where subs/slaves have no limits.

That's because people, as a rule, fail to qualify statements such as these and others. I couldn't begin to count the number of both submissives and Dom's who have made that very claim and then, when you question them further, you come to find out they would NOT in fact, cut off their right arm for you or rob a bank for you or kill someone just because you want them to do so. The sputtering starts and THEN the qualifiers are added. As soon as you ask them if they'd be willing to have a red hot poker stuck up their ass, they come back with the famous.. "MY MASTER WOULD NEVER DO THAT!!" Um, ok. Glad to hear it because it's really stupid, but it sure sounds like a limit to me.

Within the confines of an adult consensual BDSM relationship, I do know people who don't 'think' they have limits and who are willing to take certain risks and suffer the consequences of their actions. Generally, they fall in to one of two groups. They are either brand spanking new and haven't had enough exposure to know they actually have a limit to something OR they have been steeping for so long in the leather vats, they've been pretty much exposed to the gamut and haven't found anything that they aren't willing to take a gamble on. To me a limit is a line and if that line is crossed, it's a deal breaker. Are there really people who don't have 'some' line that can't be crossed? I remember this submissive who told me that she would be willing to contract AIDS if her Master told her to do so. The woman is in serious need of therapy.

No limit slaves and Doms embrace blind trust. Lovely concept that. Sounds so romantic, so.. slavey, and generally they are 'more' submissive or slave-like than the next guy because of their delusion.

::pauses to koff a bit::

I can honestly say that I have no limits of any consequence with Himself because he has the same exact ones and more, but should something happen to our relationship and I'm back on my own, my limits come with me and into any other relationship I may have in the future.

The other thing I hear a lot is that a slave takes on the limits of their Master so that those limits become moot. I've seen that happen enough that I believe it to an extent. Certainly Himself has many more limits than I do, but I didn't suddenly add things to my list of limits just because they are limits for him.

One last thing.. another 'myth'.. vanilla is boring, stale, repetitive and doesn't have any spice.

BDSM is 'better', the Bionic relationship, the hardest to live, the one which carries the most shame and takes the most strength.

I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, too. Cheap.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 8:59:14 AM

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Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
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Hmmmm, a good head on her shoulders and beautiful too ! ! Well said Sandi.

=============

he he he
a woman's worse nightmare--
another woman that is not only pretty..but intelligent..
he he giggle chuckle
==
seriously;;
She put in a GREAT post!
very wise, very intelligent...very sweet..

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"

(in reply to OscarHargraves)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 9:03:39 AM

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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A good post, though there are a few points I saw giant red Xs over.

I would amend to this list the following additional statements:

1. Simply because you have not witnessed something or do not subscribe to the notion of a lifestyle doesn't mean it does not exist—no matter how much 'experience' you have.

2. Calling people 'insane' or 'delusional' if they contradict your generalities isn't the best path to enlightenment or truth.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 9:09:02 AM

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Joined: 1/20/2006
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Thank you, Sandi. I really hope that potential submissives and budding Masters take the time to look at this.

I get a lot of arguments concerning the control issue. I completely agree with what you said. Many of my peers scoff my initial accessment of a submissives needs and desires. I find it essential. Although I am not subject to performing a song and dance for my slaves, I do take all of their needs into account when outlining their training. A true master realizes her needs are equal with that of her submissive.

(in reply to veronicaofML)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 9:22:53 AM

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Joined: 9/26/2004
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To call one's self a Goddess is one thing, but to act like it is another--and you are and always have been such a class act--this post is well stated and always timely--

The two issues I find are the fantasy and the control issues---as I refer to it "when the latex hits the road"... there are no doubts that there are fantasy seekers and providers--more than enough I am sure--but as many of us know that is not the essence of a D/s or even an S/m relationship--what irks Me is the lack of respect for those profiles that clearly state as such--(not a new email-reply rant--merely a comment)--but then telemarketers don't even respect a do not call notation on one's house--so life is what it is--in or out of the L/life

As for control, you stated it perfectly--

and I so agree---to have no limits to me says, "I am desparate and will do whatever--UNTIL it isn't something I like or want", OR " I am lazy, you do all the work"--someone who doesnt take the time to decide what they will and won't do, probably approaches life the same way--

This is all very well stated, My thanks--

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 10:16:07 AM

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

I want to take a minute and dispell some Utopian myths of BDSM relationships (as I see them). Please feel free to comment on mine or add your own.

1) There is no Utopia where subs/slaves have no limits.

If you have absolutely no limits you are either insane or dillusional. Everyone has limits. Even Dom/mes. The best relationships are those in which limits are in harmony and so are no longer a factor.

I have been reading this thread with interest as I have always felt pretty much the same way that you have stated. It did remind me however, of a post that I made some time ago regarding no limits subs and slaves. I had given some bizarre examples of things that I thought would surely make anyone realize that they did indeed have limits....and to my astonishment there were still those who stated that they would indeed comply with any of those demands, no matter how bizarre or harmful. While the thread left me with more questions than answers, it also made me at least entertain the possibility that these people do indeed exist. So is it a possibility that this one may not always be fantasy or myth? Anyway...here is a link if anyone is interested....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_80843/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 2/9/2006 10:17:29 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 10:24:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
So is it a possibility that this one may not always be fantasy or myth? Anyway...here is a link if anyone is interested....

There is always someone out there willing to do something. Would I kill? Yes. Would I steal? Yes.

Can I conceive of some absolutely surreal situation in which I would have to kill my nephew and know it was the right thing? Sure.

And that has nothing to do with being owned or not. The reality is that if you are willing to do something, you will do it whether you are owned or not and if you are not willing to do something, you won't do it whether you are owned or not. That's what consent means. That's why your will is always your will, you can't give it away.

Limits usually mean "things that I will not do given normal life circumstances."

And yes, everyone has those.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 11:38:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

A good post, though there are a few points I saw giant red Xs over.

I would amend to this list the following additional statements:

1. Simply because you have not witnessed something or do not subscribe to the notion of a lifestyle doesn't mean it does not exist—no matter how much 'experience' you have.

2. Calling people 'insane' or 'delusional' if they contradict your generalities isn't the best path to enlightenment or truth.

Thank you amayos, as i was feeling a bit irritated by all of these "absolutes" that were being stated as fact. Maybe they are fact for somebody but not for all.

No limits- i am owned real time by my Master and i have no stated limits. He does not allow me ANY control over the relationship and a stated limit is, according to He and i, a slave implementing one area of control. i do however, TRUST my Master to know how far he can take me at any given time, and therefore not to break or destroy me. These questions of, "if he told you to jump off a cliff, would you?" amuse me. Of course i would. my trust in him is such, and knowing he is not an idiot who does not prefer a dead or maimed slave, that if he told me to jump there must obviously be something more dangerous behind me than before me.

So there, i have said it. my Master has done some very extreme things with me. Would he have done such things on day one? No because it would have destroyed me. He has inched me along, at the speed which is most appropriate for me, and i have followed.

Blind trust? No. i am aware of his human-ness. i am smart enough myself where if something does not sound "right," i excerise my allowed right to ask him about it. With every step he has moved me, he is totally and fully aware of every thought and feeling i have on it, as i am required to tell him. This is how he knows where to push and where it is best to wait. i am always allowed to tell him if i have concerns at any level, and what they are, and why they exist. He takes everything into consideration and decides from there. And i trust his decisions. By stating limits means my trust is limited.....

Calling people "insane" or "delusional" without knowing or understanding the dynamic of a very intimate relationship demonstrates naivety or ignorance to me. Talk to me and know me before deciding who and what i am. And if you don't, then your opinion does not carry much weight to me about the subject.

Not trying to be rude here. i fully understand there are so many new submissives who use "no limits" casually. To them it is a matter of education...of what that means and what that does not mean. To a deeply submissive, experienced and devoted slave, it means something very different. Please try to look at all sides.

(in reply to amayos)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 12:21:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
One last thing.. another 'myth'.. vanilla is boring, stale, repetitive and doesn't have any spice.

BDSM is 'better', the Bionic relationship, the hardest to live, the one which carries the most shame and takes the most strength.

I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, too. Cheap.

Celeste

i'm so glad to see that sentiment stated, Celeste. i've never gotten the need (obviously derived from insecurity) to use the term "vanilla" as some lesser form of living or loving; we all have our needs, desires and modes of expressing love, and as long as we do so with the intention of caring for, venerating and supporting our beloved, it's all wonderful.

A wonderful post, Ms. Sandi; no matter how many times it's restated, the truth that there is no truth in a D/s relationship that shouldn't be in any relationship, and that communication, hard work and constant affirmation can't be avoided by being a "D" or an "s". One is either willing to learn, listen, reveal and revitalize forever, or the dream remains just that.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 12:27:05 PM

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From: Texas
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quote:

Thank you amayos, as i was feeling a bit irritated by all of these "absolutes" that were being stated as fact. Maybe they are fact for somebody but not for all.

I've known Sandi for a very long time, in fact, considered her one of my dearest friends while Himself and I were in Utah. She was the 'maid of honor' at the ceremony when Michael publically collared me and I know that she certainly doesn't need me nor anyone else to speak for her, but, she did state in her OP...

quote:

I want to take a minute and dispell some Utopian myths of BDSM relationships (as I see them). Please feel free to comment on mine or add your own.

That's not exactly an absolute or a statement of 'fact'. They are her opinions based on her experiences and exposures in BDSM and life in general. She's been into the scene for several years, knows she's human and freely admits it, but has never, to my knowledge, tried to push her ideas or opinions on anyone else. She's simply stated her views and offered others to share their own. I'm not sure why you are irritated, but you really don't need to be. Sandi's an intelligent woman and if it wasn't for her I'd never know how well Brazilian and Sumatra beans mix together to make the best damn cup of coffee on the planet. :)

I understand how her statement that someone who believes they have 'no limits' is either insane or delusional, can be viewed as an absolute, but in truth, I don't see it as off the mark at all. No limits, really? So, go up to a complete stranger, do exactly what they tell you, when they tell you, no matter what it is at all times, day and night. Follow orders without forethought by anyone who gives them, no matter what they are, who it might hurt, kill or maim. That sounds like you're off the deep end to me as well. A soldier does these things? Um, no, they don't. They follow a chain of command. Might the end result be the same? Could be, but it's not blind obedience from an order because they have no limits.

I've yet to meet someone with 'no limit's. They are always qualified, whether that qualifier is no limits with someone you trust, no limits within a certain parameter, no limits that aren't the owners limits, no limits based on your faith in God, no limits based on military duty.. yadda, yadda, the list goes on.

I read a post that said something along the lines of Jeffery Dahlmer had no limits. Uh huh. Well, I didn't know him, but I certainly wouldn't make a statement that he had no limits. How can you know? He was capable of things that most of us just wouldn't contemplate, but that doesn't mean that there are things he wouldn't do as well. Of course, he WAS insane, so maybe not a good case in study.

No limits. Yeah, I think it's a myth unless qualified. Are you insane or delusional if you really have NO LIMITS? As soon as I get my Ph.D in that area and then actually meet someone and do a complete diagnosis, I'll let you know.. my guess would be, there is serious room to doubt someone's mental capacity to be a fully functioning healthy human if they truly believe they have no limits.

Quite often we take words and definitions and twist them to fit into own perceptions, but most words have finite meanings and it's only how we choose to perceive those words that change context. A limit is a boundary. No means no. No limits means no boundary's. Plain, simple and not a lot of wiggle room there. It's the qualifier and intent that matters here.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 12:33:31 PM

Posts: 1317
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From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
One last thing.. another 'myth'.. vanilla is boring, stale, repetitive and doesn't have any spice.

BDSM is 'better', the Bionic relationship, the hardest to live, the one which carries the most shame and takes the most strength.

I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, too. Cheap.

Celeste
===============

but is that brooklyn NY or brooklyn iowa?

the one in brooklyn iowa is a short one....so it shouldn't cost too much...

(runs for the door)

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"

(in reply to subtoFemDommes)

RE: Utopia vs Reality - 2/9/2006 12:39:25 PM

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

but is that brooklyn NY or brooklyn iowa?

the one in brooklyn iowa is a short one....so it shouldn't cost too much...

(runs for the door)

Um.. um.. I own the deeds to both, yeah.. that's it .. which one ya want and how much are ya willing to pay?

::thinking I'm not the ONLY one who's a bitatruble around here::

Ever ask your Mistress to change your name from Veronica to Wiseass?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to veronicaofML)

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