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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:44:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The thing is, many different cultures talk about "chi" or "prana" and many other names for this energy or soul that has been written countless times. So of course it has me questioning the fact that it is highly possible that the scientific world has yet to devise a way to quantify, measure and detect this "energy" or "soul"


If we accepted that argument, bear, then anything anyone could imagine could be argued as "true" simply on the chance that it's merely currently unmeasurable.

Any hypothesis at least potentially unfalsifiable is speculation. Great for the imagination, but not useful in any scientific context.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:46:47 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmyster
Yes. We can test to see whether things hold true. Freedom and justice are defined concepts, both of which can be observed.
There's not a single accepted definition however, it's entirely subjective.  Without that single definition, we can't test because we haven't yet agreed on exactly what we're testing for.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:48:52 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I mean, "truth" is a red herring...since people both on the reality side and the imagination side want to appropriate the term for themselves. "Truth", unfortunately, always has the "personal subjective truth" side which everyone can, at last hope, resort to. I would think the term, though, is intended to try and determine things that are as close to universal as possible.



I think there is also an ultimate truth. One so rigid  that we would reject it. Simply because we tend to want our brand of truth rather than what is.

So, the only parameter you've set forth to determine if something is an "ultimate truth" is:
  • Something we reject because we want our own version of that thing instead.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:50:38 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Now there have been tests showing that through the power of prayer, or meditation, over all bodily health improves.

None that yield any more favorable results than any other placebo. The effects the mind can have on such things are documented...but how the mind chooses to interpret and/or go through such a process isn't of importance so much as the fact that it's doing it.

I'd like to see how may modern-days theists would convert if a poll showed that praying to Apollo, more than any other deity, seemed to show the greatest recuperative benefits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

There are some things religious, that can be observed and explained.

People are prone to say this when the expanse of things that cannot be scientifically deconstructed for their biological and/or chemical building blocks is actually rather small anymore.

There will always be something that can be argued is beyond any degree empirical knowledge-gathering prowess.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:54:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Hi Tim,

Science is not always 100% correct though. Even the laws of gravity have been tested and proven to not be exact with the Pioneer anomoly. Now there have been tests showing that through the power of prayer, or meditation, over all bodily health improves. There are some things religious, that can be observed and explained. As time goes by, more and more can be explained, and more of the hocus pocus can be shown to be just that.

Live well,
Orion

Hi Orion,

Actually science is NEVER 100% certain. The hypothesis has been tested, the test can and has been independently conducted with the same consistent results, and thus can be used reliably for prediction. That's a theory--like the Theory of Gravity. When I drop an apple, it falls. But there are no certain scientific facts. We don't even know what gravity is or why it works--just that it works.

Every scientific break-through is actually a break-with whatever came before--we observe new phenomena, develop new hypotheses to account for them, test those hypothoses, and if they hold true consistently, we have a new, more comprehensive theory--just as Einstein's theories replaced Newton's regarding gravity (when we observed during solar eclipses that he was right about light bending around the sun's gravitational field).

And the Pioneer anomaly is a good example of this process continuing--and that's the point. Science is not a set of conclusions, but a process of fruitful inquiry.

Live well,

Tim

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:56:08 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I guess if you want to call completely into question the reliability of our senses and their ability to determine reality. This could be The Matrix, yes.
Heh.  I take your point.  However, I'm not looking at the extreme 'are we all butterflies dreaming of being people"  argument.

Specifically, I'm interested in the argument that says that matter is the only substance.  That, at least to me, seems entirely out of the remit of science- it's a matter of philosophical truth.

Which would dovetail with my argument that many subjects, spirituality being one of them, are simply not something that the scientific method is applicable to.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 2:58:39 PM   
cpK69


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Only a suggestion, but I had an idea for an example of what a ‘soul’ might be likened to; think umbilical cord.

Test subjects are readily available, they are the ones who have been cut off from the truths of life; and are often referred to as ‘nut jobs’.

*is concerned that may have been stated too vaguely*

Kim

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 3:00:50 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The effects the mind can have on such things are documented...but how the mind chooses to interpret and/or go through such a process isn't of importance so much as the fact that it's doing it.


OK, here I have to disagree with you.

At least from a scientific perspective, methodology is everything. And the mind IS being studied: the areas of the brain stimulated, and the concept of mind tested (currently favored is the entire body's electro-chemical system from cell processes to the nervous system. Patients can learn to control computers using the brain alone (with electrodes), for example.

But how is the crucial point.



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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 3:33:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

People are only closed minded when they refuse to consider the other sides argument. If they have considered science and rejected it as an answer, then that isnt closed mindedness in my opinion.

Intellectual affirmative action is not an applicable way to deal with things factually.

Are you closed-minded because you don't entertain the possibility that you may be a rhinoceros?



Can you not even understand the Quote you used ?  I said I would consider it. "Am I a rhinoceros ? "  No I am not. It matter not how briefly i considered it, as long as i did.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 5:24:12 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I think we do not know enough about the world around us to judge the validity of an Intelligent Source in the universe ...I'm not sure we ever will.

Many see science as an absolute answer but seem to forget all the mistakes made in science in the past... Today’s so called absolute facts of science may prove to be wrong in the future as they have been proven in the past.

The postulations of science will look much different in the future and for all we know may support or at least allow the existence of a Source.

Butch


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 7:06:26 PM   
Crush


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http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/



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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 8:07:22 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Yes. We can test to see whether things hold true. Freedom and justice are defined concepts, both of which can be observed.
There's not a single accepted definition however, it's entirely subjective.  Without that single definition, we can't test because we haven't yet agreed on exactly what we're testing for.


That's ridiculous. They are concepts we named, not figments of individual imagination.

And obviously both are well-defined. Pick a dictionary. If that's "entirely subjective," then so is all knowledge, all language, and this discussion means whatever anyone imagines.

Oh look! A rhinoceros!




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2009 8:08:57 PM >

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 8:49:18 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Science is a tool for finding answers, not the answer itself.

I believe that science will eventually catch up, or become irrelevant.

Kim


Great response!
Science will never "catch" up, though.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:00:11 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

"Am I a rhinoceros ? "  No I am not. It matter not how briefly i considered it, as long as i did.

So how do you determine how much time for consideration you will give to a certain idea?


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:01:58 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Science is a tool for finding answers, not the answer itself.

I believe that science will eventually catch up, or become irrelevant.

Kim


Great response!
Science will never "catch" up, though.


Neither of these comments make sense...or at least, neither shows an adequate understanding of what science is and what it yields.

The reason either of these comments could even be made and put into a viewable medium made up of pixels on a screen is because of scientific results.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:03:52 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The postulations of science will look much different in the future and for all we know may support or at least allow the existence of a Source.

Not unless the supposed uber-creature is able to travel from its ethereal domain into our worlds and demonstrate not only the process of biological and geological spawning in details, but to also generate it by mere thought alone.




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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:07:09 PM   
MzMia


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Status: offline 		These statements might not make sense to YOU, but they make sense to US.
So that is our reality.
You can determine your reality, but you can not determine our reality.
As always, to each their own.
Peace

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/1/2009 9:08:17 PM >

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:17:15 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

These statements might not make sense to YOU, but they make sense to US.
So that is our reality.
You can determine your reality, but you can not determine our reality.
As always, to each their own.
Peace

That's all fine and good, but the underlying reality to your/our/my "reality" is that the former will function entirely irrelevant of the latter.

So...as far as making postulations as to whether one thing or another will have this or that demise in the 'universal reality' (assuming we want our comments to have any credibility), it would behoove us remember the laws of that very 'universal reality'.

But...heck. I'm even easy-going as far as that's concerned...so long as we remember which "realities" belong in the realm of metaphysics and which belong in the arena of our otherwise materialistic daily lives.


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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:25:19 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

These statements might not make sense to YOU, but they make sense to US.
So that is our reality.
You can determine your reality, but you can not determine our reality.
As always, to each their own.
Peace

That's all fine and good, but the underlying reality to your/our/my "reality" is that the former will function entirely irrelevant of the latter.

So...as far as making postulations as to whether one thing or another will have this or that demise in the 'universal reality' (assuming we want our comments to have any credibility), it would behoove us remember the laws of that very 'universal reality'.

But...heck. I'm even easy-going as far as that's concerned...so long as we remember which "realities" belong in the realm of metaphysics and which belong in the arena of our otherwise materialistic daily lives.



Let me add a little caveat.
Many of us believe in a Creator.
The Creator we believe in created the universe and much more.
Our Creator gave human beings a brain that allows them to make all these "scientific discoveries".
For some of us, there is a MUCH Higher authority than any man/or any scientist/or scientific discovery, and that is the authority that concerns us the most.

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RE: Is belief......? - 6/1/2009 9:36:47 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Let me add a little caveat.
Many of us believe in a Creator.
The Creator we believe in created the universe and much more.
Our Creator gave human beings a brain that allows them to make all these "scientific discoveries".
For some of us, there is a MUCH Higher authority than any man/or any scientist/or scientific discovery, and that is the authority that concerns us the most.

Well, one of the beauties of being a self-reflective sentient creature is our ability to decide for ourselves how we prioritize the value of things in our lives.


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