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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/3/2009 8:11:16 PM

servantforuse

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Zero funds to use?? He just spent 2 trillian dollars. It makes the Irac war look like kindergarten lunch money..

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 4:43:21 AM

Mezrem

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...one reason some of them were taken in was that the US military offered cash to anyone who brought them a terrorist and some people had neighbours that needed money.
This doesn't apply to all of them obviously, but if the only burden of proof you need of guilt is that the individual is in custody, then you may want to reacquaint yourself with the basic concepts of justice.

I'm aware of that... but I am also aware that I don't want them here a view held by many. The major mistake being had here is the assumption that these people are for what ever reason have acess to the protections of the American civil court system. IF the case you outlined above is the fact then send those people back to thier home countries... if it's not then hold a military trial and lets be done with this.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 5:37:54 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Zero funds to use?? He just spent 2 trillian dollars. It makes the Irac war look like kindergarten lunch money..

Wow! Two posts ago someone said it was one trillion. Obama managed to spend an extra trillion in just under seven hours!

Whaddaya say folks, can we do better than that for this priceless piece of conservative exaggeration?

Do I hear three trillion, three trillion.............three trillion anyone?

The last bid stands at two, two trilion going once, going twice.........................

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 6:40:40 AM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Zero funds to use?? He just spent 2 trillian dollars. It makes the Irac war look like kindergarten lunch money..

Wow! Two posts ago someone said it was one trillion. Obama managed to spend an extra trillion in just under seven hours!

Whaddaya say folks, can we do better than that for this priceless piece of conservative exaggeration?

Do I hear three trillion, three trillion.............three trillion anyone?

The last bid stands at two, two trilion going once, going twice.........................

my bad...I left a zero out it in my prior post should have been 13. 10 trillion is the congressional budget office estimate of the DEFICIT, not even the total spending, over 10 years of the proposed budget.

< Message edited by CruelNUnsual -- 6/4/2009 6:43:48 AM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 7:14:26 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Pretty sobering state of affairs, isn't it? When someone as conservative as you seem to be, and someone as liberal as I am, both agree that the country may be so far removed from what it used to stand for, they don't know if they can stomach living here anymore? Worth reflecting upon, I think.

I will NOT leave this country under any circumstance that appears to be aborting the responsibilities that our fore-fathers have passed on to me!!!

If necessary I like many men before me will die a bloody death in attempt to restore the original constitution of these UNITED STATES. I, my sons and many relatives, friends and fellow Americans before us swore to support and defend the constitution of these UNITED STATES an oath that still rings in my head.

I am an American. I am an American. I AM AN AMERICAN!!! For me surrender is not an option.

Some of you have been fighting a bloodless civil war over ideology for years now. In your attempts to achieve ultimate victory over your opposing ideology you have turned a blind eye to the intent of our own Constitution and the principles of the greatest Nation ever conceived for the common man. Many on either side of the political spectrum dismiss opposing views simply to support what they view as correct. Even if that "correct" contridicts all rational intellect.

Have a read.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

An enemy implies all that would attempt to defile, deface, alter the premise, circumvent or eliminate the Constitution. This document that is helpless without the studious defense by the men that it represents. Defending it doesn't simply imply the act of taking to arms.

We must speak up and we must demand accountability in our elected officials. This isn't a time to run; it's a time to behave like Americans. And if you can't do that.....LEAVE; you don't deserve the rights provided by the blood of sovereign free men and the ideals inscribed within the text of History's greatest ever document.

We must let go of the stubborn and extreme concepts of left versus right and call to mind that without personal freedom left versus right does not exist and if you believe for one moment that ANY man given unchecked and unbalanced power will govern with the welfare of all at heart you are not only mistaken, but perhaps to naive to allow yourself the title of free man.

The United States is yet a babe in the annals of history. Our Constitution merely an impressionable child needing to be supervised, nurtured and protected from all dangers that would compromise its posterity. We must stand strong as a nation, bound to the principles that make us great.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 6/4/2009 7:19:40 AM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 9:42:53 AM

Arpig

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quote:

History's greatest ever document.

That's a bit over the top, don't you think?

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 9:49:28 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

History's greatest ever document.

That's a bit over the top, don't you think?

....hmm......magna carta, the bible, the koran, my thesis paper......maybe history's fifth greatest document

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 10:10:14 AM

Lucylastic

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see there you are Philo, looking outside the box again:)

Adding the Constitution of Medina, just for shits n giggles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
and the Roman Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Roman_Republic
I kinda like the Canadian Charter of Rights too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms
So many documents to chooose from.:)
Lucy

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 6/4/2009 10:12:01 AM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 10:11:23 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

History's greatest ever document.

That's a bit over the top, don't you think?

If all you see are words and a piece of paper perhaps.

If you see the evolution of men; men examining their past, applying principles and concepts from the vast expanse of civilization, their unmatched efforts in reason, the toil within intense debate, the price in blood and the foresight of genius. No I didn't go over the top, if fact I may have understated the importance of this parchment.

You can, in your arrogance minimize its value; but then again do to its significance, being American or not this very constitution is the reason you garner that right. In my opinion no single literary reference has impacted the entirety of humanity such as this.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 10:15:18 AM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

History's greatest ever document.

That's a bit over the top, don't you think?

If all you see are words and a piece of paper perhaps.

If you see the evolution of men; men examining their past, applying principles and concepts from the vast expanse of civilization, their unmatched efforts in reason, the toil within intense debate, the price in blood and the foresight of genius. No I didn't go over the top, if fact I may have understated the importance of this parchment.

You can, in your arrogance minimize its value; but then again do to its significance, being American or not this very constitution is the reason you garner that right. In my opinion no single literary reference has impacted the entirety of humanity such as this.

Id put Origin of the Species on top if its expanded beyond political documents.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 10:34:17 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

If all you see are words and a piece of paper perhaps.

If you see the evolution of men; men examining their past, applying principles and concepts from the vast expanse of civilization, their unmatched efforts in reason, the toil within intense debate, the price in blood and the foresight of genius. No I didn't go over the top, if fact I may have understated the importance of this parchment.

You can, in your arrogance minimize its value; but then again do to its significance, being American or not this very constitution is the reason you garner that right. In my opinion no single literary reference has impacted the entirety of humanity such as this.

You do realize that the Constitution was largely created from the beliefs espoused in many of the documents the other posters quoted?

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 11:09:06 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

If all you see are words and a piece of paper perhaps.

If you see the evolution of men; men examining their past, applying principles and concepts from the vast expanse of civilization, their unmatched efforts in reason, the toil within intense debate, the price in blood and the foresight of genius. No I didn't go over the top, if fact I may have understated the importance of this parchment.

You can, in your arrogance minimize its value; but then again do to its significance, being American or not this very constitution is the reason you garner that right. In my opinion no single literary reference has impacted the entirety of humanity such as this.

You do realize that the Constitution was largely created from the beliefs espoused in many of the documents the other posters quoted?

I believe I mentioned that they "applying principles and concepts from the vast expanse of civilization" c reated the document. But these ideas weren't the only things that went into the creation of the US Constitution. Yes they took what were perceived to be the best ideas and qualities of past Republics, hopefully expounded and improved upon them. But all Republics are for not without the public they represent.

It was not my intent to marginalize the ideas of others. The evolution of idea is what builds the concept of all humanity.

Simply consider what went into the creation of this particular document, what was risked, what was spent, what was dared dreamed, what was conceived, how they studied the lives of others to produce the best yet example of government.

Consider then what evolved from this document, it wasn't simply the conception of one United States. It gave birth to the sovereignty of the common man. It empowered this idea of all men being equal beyond national borders. It furthered the expanse of men daring to dream of making their own mark on this globe.

This wasn't simply a book of philosophical metaphor and spirtual conjecture. It through the support of the people it was born to serve gave the peasant child a chance to breath the air and drink the water of kings.

While many of the other documents mentioned payed homage to such novel concepts this US Constitution and the men IT SERVES indeed bare reality to such notions.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 6/4/2009 11:15:39 AM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 11:26:24 AM

Arpig

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quote:

You can, in your arrogance minimize its value; but then again do to its significance, being American or not this very constitution is the reason you garner that right.

Actually, the US constitution does not, and has never garnered me any rights whatsoever.

quote:

In my opinion no single literary reference has impacted the entirety of humanity such as this.

Well, you are entitled to your view, but it is somewhat misguided, as the US constitution was not even the first such document, it was preceeded, and greatly influenced by, the constitution of the Corsican Republic (1755).

The US Constitution is a noble document, and an inspiration to many, but it really has little or no effect on the lives of those who live outside the US, and thus it really cannot be considered the greatest document ever. The Magna Carta, mentioned by philosphy has had a far greater influence (including the US constitution itself), as had the Bible. The writings of Voltaire and Rousseau have also had a far greater impact on the world as a whole.
As far as inspirational documents, the Declaration of Independence outranks the constitution. That is the document that conceptualised the idea of the sovreignty and rights of the common man.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 6/4/2009 11:28:21 AM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 11:37:56 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

but it really has little or no effect on the lives of those who live outside the US

This comment here is why the term arrogance comes to mind when reading your comments. God save the King/Queen and all.

As far as the remainder of your text, I believe I covered that well enough already.

quote:

As far as inspirational documents, the Declaration of Independence outranks the constitution. That is the document that conceptualised the idea of the sovreignty and rights of the common man.

I can agree with your comment here. But the Declaration of Independence was the original preamble what would be the US Constitution.

But in the end, I've made my opinion, consider it rubbish if you will...

The mileage of man should be his own to determine and support, I have my prized document, you have yours.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 1:55:54 PM

Arpig

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

but it really has little or no effect on the lives of those who live outside the US

This comment here is why the term arrogance comes to mind when reading your comments. God save the King/Queen and all.

OK Bull, just what effect does the US constitution have on the lives of people in India, China, Canada, Norway, Namibia, etc., etc.?
And just what rights does the US constitution give anybody not a citizen or resident of the US?

None and None. It is not arrogance to state the facts, it is however arrogance to claim that the US constitution is supremely relevant to the rest of the world.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/4/2009 4:42:44 PM

FirmhandKY

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I'm pretty much in agreement with Bull.

The US Constitution has been a model (if, however, sometimes misapplied) to many governments which have formed since it was written.

If you wish to minimize the effect of the Constitution, and only believe that the people who live under the government of which it established are effected by it, I think you are missing its wider impact.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/4/2009 4:43:12 PM >

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/5/2009 6:45:22 AM

Cagey18

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

my bad...I left a zero out it in my prior post should have been 13. 10 trillion is the congressional budget office estimate of the DEFICIT, not even the total spending, over 10 years of the proposed budget.

This would be the DEFICIT that George W. Bush was the single greatest contributor to, not President Obama, yes?

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/5/2009 6:53:49 AM

Mezrem

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

my bad...I left a zero out it in my prior post should have been 13. 10 trillion is the congressional budget office estimate of the DEFICIT, not even the total spending, over 10 years of the proposed budget.

This would be the DEFICIT that George W. Bush was the single greatest contributor to, not President Obama, yes?

Um Cagey.. check your numbers. Yes good old George put the screws too us. that said thought the current leadership is going it's part as well. Plus the fact that and lets be honoest here, there where plenty of people on the Dem side who where happy with some of the huge spending going on.

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/5/2009 7:14:34 AM

Cagey18

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mezrem

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

my bad...I left a zero out it in my prior post should have been 13. 10 trillion is the congressional budget office estimate of the DEFICIT, not even the total spending, over 10 years of the proposed budget.

This would be the DEFICIT that George W. Bush was the single greatest contributor to, not President Obama, yes?

Um Cagey.. check your numbers. Yes good old George put the screws too us. that said thought the current leadership is going it's part as well. Plus the fact that and lets be honoest here, there where plenty of people on the Dem side who where happy with some of the huge spending going on.

Um Mezrem, my numbers are just fine. See below (from a 5/21 post). As I said, George is the single largest contributor.

(and let's be honest here, the Republicans were in charge of the spending for 6 of George's 8 years in office)

Contribution to national debt under Ronald Reagan: $1.8 trillion
Contribution to national debt under George H. W. Bush: $1.5 trillion (one term)
Contribution to national debt under Bill Clinton: $1.5 trillion
Contribution to national debt under George W. Bush: $4.9 trillion
Contribution to national debt under Barack Obama: $0.7 trillion

Granted, Obama has only been in office 4 months (and it would be just plain stupid of anyone to extrapolate from these numbers to the rest of Obama's term(s)), but it's obvious Obama didn't create the current $11.3 trillion debt all by himself.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/NPGateway
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm011993.pdf
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm011989.pdf
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm011981.pdf

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RE: Yikes! I think the honeymoon is over. - 6/5/2009 7:42:11 AM

Mezrem

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

Um Mezrem, my numbers are just fine. See below (from a 5/21 post). As I said, George is the single largest contributor.

(and let's be honest here, the Republicans were in charge of the spending for 6 of George's 8 years in office)

Contribution to national debt under Ronald Reagan: $1.8 trillion
Contribution to national debt under George H. W. Bush: $1.5 trillion (one term)
Contribution to national debt under Bill Clinton: $1.5 trillion
Contribution to national debt under George W. Bush: $4.9 trillion
Contribution to national debt under Barack Obama: $0.7 trillion

Granted, Obama has only been in office 4 months (and it would be just plain stupid of anyone to extrapolate from these numbers to the rest of Obama's term(s)), but it's obvious Obama didn't create the current $11.3 trillion debt all by himself.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/NPGateway
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm011993.pdf
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm011989.pdf
ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdm011981.pdf

As I said Bush earns a good bit of contempt here.. but you act as if none from the other side voted on any of those policies. If it was taken that I ment to lay 11.3 trillion at the feet of Obama then I'm sorry, it was not my intent to have it viewed that way. That said it does not exuse the actions taken to prop up failing businesses or the flippent spending of OUR money. While not on these boards in the Bursh years I often said the same things when it came to Mr. Bush.

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