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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 1:59:51 PM

DavanKael

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Sure, Northern Gent, possible but my money's on not probable.
There's too much extremist thought and contradiction running rampant in the OP's conceptualization of things.
And, imo and my opinion only, if authority that has been given has gone so awry as to need bucking, the relationship is seriously screwed up: if you're gonna buck, do so decisively enough to usurp power and/or end the relationship...bucking an established dynamic for anything less than a relationship-ending reason is an insult to one's self, one's Other, and the relationship.
Davan

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Post #: 41

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:02:27 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

but who is to say what will or wont work for others.

Yeah to each their own but in the absence of a clear line of authority to which they adhere I'm struggling to see where the dominance and submission exists.

P.S. The OP doesn't sound like plain sailing.......the lad in the OP isn't getting fed and the lass can't watch television in peace.......could be working a lot better in my eyes. On the plus side the electricity bill is being kept to a minimum - hard times/needs must etc.

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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:07:21 PM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

On the plus side the electricity bill is being kept to a minimum - hard times/needs must etc.

See positives in every situation

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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:11:50 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

if authority that has been given has gone so awry as to need bucking, the relationship is seriously screwed up: if you're gonna buck, do so decisively enough to usurp power and/or end the relationship...bucking an established dynamic for anything less than a relationship-ending reason is an insult to one's self, one's Other, and the relationship.

I would (and have done) be putting my hand on my heart and asking myself whether or not I've done everything I should have before I go down the road of writing off the OP - sometimes I've knocked it on the head; at other times I've kept chipping away. I would say that horses for courses is the best policy.

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Post #: 44

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:14:02 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

On the plus side the electricity bill is being kept to a minimum - hard times/needs must etc.

See positives in every situation

There's always a positive but then there's always a negative too - not only are they starving they're freezing to death too.

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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:17:16 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

if authority that has been given has gone so awry as to need bucking, the relationship is seriously screwed up: if you're gonna buck, do so decisively enough to usurp power and/or end the relationship...bucking an established dynamic for anything less than a relationship-ending reason is an insult to one's self, one's Other, and the relationship.

I would (and have done) be putting my hand on my heart and asking myself whether or not I've done everything I should have before I go down the road of writing off the OP - sometimes I've knocked it on the head; at other times I've kept chipping away. I would say that horses for courses is the best policy.

I agree, Northern Gent, hence my qualifying the dire nature of the situation.
Honestly, I think that the sort of malignant manipulation I sense as inherent based on the OP's post would make me want to strangle a person and they'd not be my partner long. Believe me, when I've made a commitment to a person and a relationship, I'm rather extreme in doing my best to make it work but I'm not seeing that there are positive relationship skills at work in someone who attempts to manipulate (Not only their Dominant other but, via the leading wording of the post, us, the readers and respondents) when they've made a commitment to a person and a situation rather than simply stating their needs and/or issues with a thing and attempting to deal with it rather than side-long it.
Davan

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Post #: 46

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:18:48 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

So if I come and visit, you're gonna make me chow down on the e-coli?

I'm still sulking because you've been out buying kittens when you know what I think about cats. But you're still welcome and I'd be highly surprised were you anything but good company.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 6/3/2009 3:10:20 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:20:42 PM

NorthernGent

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I think we agree on much of this. The one minor difference being that I'm not convinced people are always rational - including reasonable people.

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Post #: 48

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:28:06 PM

DavanKael

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Hi, NorthernGent----
I agree that we agree (We're just agreeable sorts, aren't we, lol). My stance, however, would be that when a perosn is most inclined to be irrational, that is likely when they need to exercise self-discipline and understand why they want to go bat-sh!t, then work (Within themselves and with a partner) to behave in a fashion that affirms their commitments. I think that the OP is doing a lot of things and not thinking and/or not caring about the ramifications, implications, and impacts.
Emotions impact thoughts which imoact behaviors: mindfulness is key. Living deliberately.
Davan

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May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
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It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

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Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
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Post #: 49

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:40:35 PM

rednicky

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fyi, for those of you who said the person in the post is a switch, I do not agree. At no point does she want to tell her Dom what to do. She'd just rather 'not' do things at times. Everyone is lazy at times. Is it so much for her Dom to accept the fact that, after a hard days work she just doesn't feel like cooking? It's not like she didn't present an alternative: fast food. It's not like she's letting him starve. it's just take out. Is it right to ignore a subs feelings for the sake of your own?

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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:41:53 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Hi, NorthernGent----
I agree that we agree (We're just agreeable sorts, aren't we, lol).

Perhaps we should get married?....I'm game enough....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

My stance, however, would be that when a perosn is most inclined to be irrational, that is likely when they need to exercise self-discipline and understand why they want to go bat-sh!t, then work (Within themselves and with a partner) to behave in a fashion that affirms their commitments.

Yes absolutely - the key to changing unacceptable behaviour is to understand the root of the issue and do something about it. I suppose I'm just not as conservative about these things as some people. I can tolerate a wobble; long term is an altogether different matter. Perhaps the OP is having a wobble; perhaps it's a long term problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Emotions impact thoughts which imoact behaviors

Yes which prompted my original post that it's hard to say where the OP is coming from as there is nothing in the OP which delves into the emotions and feelings that is driving the behaviour.

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Post #: 51

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:44:32 PM

Lashra

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quote:

Color me finicky...but selective submission does not strike me as submission at all.

OP This is how I feel about it. Either he submits to me or he does not. There is no "power fluctuation" between us. I give him choices and ask his opinion when it suits me, so I'm not a bitch about it, but I refuse to fight over power.

If that type of relationship works for you OP good luck. It sounds to me more like being a "bottom" than a submissive.

~Lashra

< Message edited by Lashra -- 6/3/2009 2:45:01 PM >

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Post #: 52

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:46:42 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

The only reason I'm not agreeing with NZ on this one is that I don't think we're looking at dom/sub here at all insofar as I understand those concepts. So I ignored whatever I think doms ought to do or subs ought to do and went with... "you two need to figure out what works for you." In the end, as always, the labels mean nothing. Whatever it is that the OP does or does not do, if it works for them great and if they want to call it dominance and submission, who are we to argue -- especially given that not a single person here could define either of those two words in a way which was meaningful across the community.

Certainly what is applicable/fruitful to them is the main issue.

On the issue of "you two need to figure out what works for you", while I agree with the sentiment, I don't like the fact that if we yield simple semantics so that anyone can ascribe any definition to any word they want, we effectively lose the ability to communicate. While I was providing a personal view on submission, at very least the word itself implies yielding, not a quid pro quo.

We could also say that someone is welcome to say they do trust their partner while they're hiring a private investigator to trail them when they go out on long public errands, but we'd both understand the fact that they do not "trust" in any generally sensible sense of the word. For that reason, "submission" appears to me to be one of those words that's not coincidental...it's either there or it isn't, always.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/3/2009 2:50:24 PM >

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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:52:16 PM

lovingpet

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I just can't manage to shake the idea that reasonable people should be able to come up with some kind of adequate solution to something so simple. As for the scat and such, I didn't see it as relevant. Honestly though, if folks can't be agreeable to waiting a little bit so a show can finish, or getting up and doing it knowing it will air online later, or any other number of possible solutions, I don't know how we can even get into conceptualizing domination and submission. There is manipulation here. There is lack of consideration for each others' needs here (not saying tv viewing is a need, but the rest may well be, and eating is definitely so, though home cooked falls into the want catagory). I see massive communication issues. I see a relationship that is built on less than firm moorings.

As for me, I would ask to finish my show and then cook the meal. I would then do as I was told, regardless of if I liked the answer. I would want his needs met, regardless of my wants having to take a back seat. If I truly were exaughsted, I would simply tell him so. If he saw fit, we could order in or he may even cook. If he wished me to cook still, I would do so, but ask for help as I needed it. If I didn't get that help I would do it myself, but I would talk to him about it afterwards as I would feel my needs were being ignored. Rocket science it ain't, and it wouldn't be a bit different if I was not in a power dynamic. This is just good relationship skills.

lovingpet

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Post #: 54

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:55:29 PM

marie2

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I agree submission has to mean something, but I think there are a lot of various dynamics and a lot of gray areas.

We can't sit here and say it's ok to negotiate on some things, but not on others. Either negotiation is a legitmate application in a ds relationship or it isn't. While some of us might consider the dinner issue so small that it shouldnt even be an issue, others might see it as something that needs to be negotiated.

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RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 2:59:15 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky
fyi, for those of you who said the person in the post is a switch, I do not agree. At no point does she want to tell her Dom what to do. She'd just rather 'not' do things at times. Everyone is lazy at times. Is it so much for her Dom to accept the fact that, after a hard days work she just doesn't feel like cooking? It's not like she didn't present an alternative: fast food. It's not like she's letting him starve. it's just take out. Is it right to ignore a subs feelings for the sake of your own?

THe problem with this question rednicky is that it's so completely the wrong question that any answer given to it will also be wrong...

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Oh wait, that's probably the wrong analogy to use in this forum *laughs*. Trust me. I love carol a GREAT deal. I'm not even sure I'm capable of ignoring her feelings... especially not in favor of my own. That being said, when I say "cook", she cooks. That is the nature of dominance and submission. Now I can easily see ways to only obey some of the time or in some situations, but I cannot see a way to do that wherein either party can unilaterally change the rules... god what a disaster. So to your story, I could see making an agreement that says "cooking is in, scat is out". But then, if I said "cook", cook it would be. It wouldn't be "cook if you feel like it."

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Post #: 56

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 3:02:58 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

fyi, for those of you who said the person in the post is a switch, I do not agree. At no point does she want to tell her Dom what to do.

I would agree with this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

She'd just rather 'not' do things at times. Everyone is lazy at times. Is it so much for her Dom to accept the fact that, after a hard days work she just doesn't feel like cooking?

It's a matter of happiness. Everyone would always welcome doing something that makes them happy (unless they're intentionally trying to stay grumpy). With many subs that I've gotten to know, there is a fulfilling internal reaction they get to pleasing their D-type...it brings them genuine joy. While the issue of whether a sub is physically exhausted or otherwise incapacitated (psychologically of physically) would affect how capable the sub is of doing something, I would think the desire to do it (because of it being an example of the trust she has, which I spoke of earlier) wouldn't be compromised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

It's not like she didn't present an alternative: fast food.

If it's s genuine alternative, then the Dom is still open to make his decision between them (which would get done), yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

It's not like she's letting him starve.

A sub's primary duty is not to prevent her Dom from starving. It is to obey her Dom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

it's just take out. Is it right to ignore a subs feelings for the sake of your own?

Is it "right" for a sub's wants to trump those of her Dom?

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Post #: 57

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 3:05:10 PM

leadership527

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I might agree with you NZ, but I keep getting stuck on the problem of not a single word in all of BDSM-land having any definition that I know of. In the immortal words of Steely Dan

The things that pass for knowledge I can't understand.

So while I'd love to say that we should define all these words so that we can all communicate... the fact of the matter is, we haven't, nor do we intend to. I pretty much read every single post here and do a great deal of mental gymnastics to try to map what I'm reading into some framework that I can understand... and in the process I pretty much jettison BDSM terminology as meaningless sounds.

Heck, even you and I who very clearly think similarly across a wide spectrum, I'd be very surprised if you and I recognized either dominance or submission in a similar light. Bondage... MAYBE we could get some traction on bondage... maybe. But the rest of the words I've abandoned hope on.

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Post #: 58

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 3:08:05 PM

beargonewild

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~FR~

As for the OP, instead of taking the stance of my way or the highway, it sounds like it may be time for the Dom and sub to re-evaluate the terms and conditions to their relationship. It doesn't matter if it's D/s, M/s, or a vanilla hubby and wifey, the relationship changes thus what had been agreed upon form day one will not apply 6 mos or 5 years down the road. Individuals change as time progresses and it is logical to say the conditions of the dynamic changes also.
I am fully aware that as a sub that I agreed at the start to comply with terms I agreed to with a Dom, the fact also remains that my Dom did the same thing during the negotiations of him entering into the d/s relationship as my Dom.

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Post #: 59

RE: Sub and Dom fighting over power? - 6/3/2009 3:09:07 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

We can't sit here and say it's ok to negotiate on some things, but not on others. Either negotiation is a legitmate application in a ds relationship or it isn't.

I want to come back to this also for a semantic reason of its own.

I'm all for discussion and feedback-giving. I'm totally for complete disclosure of pertinent information ("Sir, I sprained my ankle earlier today while you were at work and that is why I feel I won't be able to join you for the 2-mile jog you demand that I run with you each day.")

This "negotiation" word, though...it seems to present a debate in the form of the sub both expecting and overriding the decision-making ability of the Dom, essentially saying "right now I know what's best, not you" and, moreso than just on the level of disobedience, I find that a painful attack on (from the view of the Dom) her trust in him and how happy her submission actually makes her (both things being, I think, crucial to a good D/s relationship).

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 6/3/2009 3:18:19 PM >

_____________________________

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I know that I'm to blame."
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Post #: 60

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