RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 8:21:16 AM

breatheasone

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It sounds like a wonderful event. i hope a good time is had by all.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 8:28:32 AM

kittinSol

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Completely bizarre that a pastor should tell his flock to bring guns, and not flowers or home-made pies, to church. Maybe he has a death wish?

But as we said already, this is taking place in Kentucky, so perhaps this is nothing more than a cultural oddity

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< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/5/2009 8:30:09 AM >

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 8:30:33 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

ed to add: Article states "insurance purposes", so +2, Thadius, Heretic...

This was the exact quote from the article:

Pagano is encouraging church members to bring a canned good and a friend to the event. He said guns must be unloaded for insurance purposes and safety reasons.

Which brings two questions to mind.

First, if he is staging an event promoting responsible gun ownership, and those same gun owners can walk into most other places with a loaded weapon, why is safety an issue? Isn't the whole event designed to prove these people are safe?

The second question is whether the insurance argument is a smokescreen to gain his fifteen minutes of fame promoting something he truly doesn't believe in.

I mean, do Wal-Marts, Home Depots, TGIFridays, or Denny's prohibit concealed carry due to insurance requirements?

Though, in the case of Denny's with all the drunken idiots after the bars close on Saturday night, it might be a good idea.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 12:43:58 PM

Musicmystery

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In the old days, church used to be about God.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 12:55:27 PM

Arpig

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quote:

In the old days, church used to be about God.

Actually churches have always been political institutions, concerned with far more than the saving of individual souls.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:03:49 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

why is safety an issue? Isn't the whole event designed to prove these people are safe?

Is it? I got the impression from the article (duhh) that it was about celebrating, "the birth of our nation," and showing, "we're not ashamed to say that there was a strong belief in God and firearms — without that this country wouldn't be here."

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
The second question is whether the insurance argument is a smokescreen to gain his fifteen minutes of fame promoting something he truly doesn't believe in. I mean, do Wal-Marts, Home Depots, TGIFridays, or Denny's prohibit concealed carry due to insurance requirements?

If you weren't having so much fun that you neglected to think, it might have occurred to that maybe the church's insurance (if it can afford any at all) doesn't cover, eh?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2009 1:08:07 PM >

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:05:58 PM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In the old days, church used to be about God.

Yeah, back when I was but a wee tot and had no choice but to trail along......all Mom and Dad took to church was a covered dish for the potluck after, and some money to put in the velvet pouch when they passed it around. And their trusty bibles of course.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:10:51 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What ever happened to "vengeance is mine sayith(sp) the Lord"

Mike, and what about "eternal mercy and forgiveness?"
I could never understand that about the Catholic Church and other "Christian" churches, "God forgives you but he kicks your ass too."
Which is it? You can't do both.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:12:17 PM

Truthiness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Indeed Kirata, that is from the Old Testament, however Christ also stated that he was not there to change the laws one iota.

Well, wanted to clarify something. Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law...but to fulfil it. To fulfil meaning to "Complete", "Finish"..etc.

What Jesus did was not destroy the Old Covenant...but fulfil the Old Covenant so that the new, better covenant could come into being.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:21:26 PM

Arpig

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quote:

Well, wanted to clarify something. Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law...but to fulfil it. To fulfil meaning to "Complete", "Finish"..etc.

Not knowing the original wording in Aramaic or Greek (whichever it was written in....Greek I believe), I would say that is a reasonable interpretation.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:28:26 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

why is safety an issue? Isn't the whole event designed to prove these people are safe?

Is it? I got the impression from the article (go figure) that it was about celebrating, "the birth of our nation," and showing, "we're not ashamed to say that there was a strong belief in God and firearms — without that this country wouldn't be here."

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
The second question is whether the insurance argument is a smokescreen to gain his fifteen minutes of fame promoting something he truly doesn't believe in. I mean, do Wal-Marts, Home Depots, TGIFridays, or Denny's prohibit concealed carry due to insurance requirements?

If you weren't having so much fun that you neglected to think, it might have occurred to that maybe the church's insurance (if it can afford any at all) doesn't cover, eh?

K.

Well, since you responded to my post you must have read it, yet you only restated the points I was disagreeing with.

And apparently you missed these quotes from the pastor in the link:

He said recent church shootings, including the killing Sunday of a late-term abortion provider in Kansas, which he condemned, highlight the need to promote safe gun ownership.

.........."Firearms can be evil and they can be useful," he said. "We're just trying to promote responsible gun ownership and gun safety."

So it would seem he is not celebrating the relation of firearms to the birth of the nation but using the holiday in an attempt to prove what he said in the quotes above.

You don't need to encourage people to show up with guns to a 4th of July event unless there is a political agenda.

Which again brings me to the question of how he is promoting safe gun ownership when he doesn't trust his own parishioners to be safe with loaded guns in their own church.

As far as the insurance issue, I believe I covered that earlier and you did not address how it is that every other business and organization in states with concealed carry laws have not found the need to ban what is legal under the law due to insurance restrictions.

And more to the point, if the insurance company did so is that not an acknowledgment that, based on pure statistical analysis, they believe that the risk of a large group of armed people congregated in one place is too great?

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 1:32:19 PM

Arpig

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quote:

As far as the insurance issue, I believe I covered that earlier and you did not address how it is that every other business and organization in states with concealed carry laws have not found the need to ban what is legal under the law due to insurance restrictions.

Probably because those other businesses are not openly inviting people to bring guns in. The pastor is making a special event of it, and thus could be held liable if someone shoots somebody, which I do not believe is the case if somebody opens fire in a Denny's.

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 2:15:43 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And apparently you missed these quotes from the pastor in the link (...)

I saw them, but he isn't proposing that people always bring their guns to church. This is a special event specifically and explicitly, "to celebrate the Fourth of July and the Second Amendment."

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So it would seem he is not celebrating the relation of firearms to the birth of the nation

That is what you are trying to make it out to be, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You don't need to encourage people to show up with guns to a 4th of July event unless there is a political agenda.

Really? I was not aware that people usually wore sidearms to church on the 4th of July. On what planet does this occur?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Which again brings me to the question of how he is promoting safe gun ownership when he doesn't trust his own parishioners to be safe with loaded guns in their own church.

It's not a matter of "trust". It's a matter of insurance. That's perfectly understandable. You're just trying to gin up fodder for your agenda.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2009 2:17:29 PM >

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RE: God, guns, and country-celebrating the 4th of July - 6/5/2009 2:22:19 PM

rulemylife

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True, but then we return to the issue of him promoting the event as a way to demonstrate safe, responsible gun ownership.

If he doesn't believe the members of his own church are safe enough with guns to deny the insurance company's request (if it really was their request) to have security present to check the guns are not loaded, then what does that say about the credibility of his trying to demonstrate how responsible and safe gun owners are?

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Post #: 34