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RE: On the gift of submission - 8/23/2004 7:39:06 PM

LordODiscipline

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A gift is something given without thought of recompense or possibility of return.

In a relationship, no matter the dynamics, an exchange of qualified and requisite personal desires and intent, and, a diversity (opposition of desires) in personal needs is required in order to maintain any semblance of mutuality - (to maintain the relationship),

"Submission" is not something that might be "given" - it is a state of mentality or 'being'. To state that it is "given" means that (eventually?) someone is used up (metaphorically speaking).

To state otherwise is simplistic and romantic 'hogwash" and (in my opinion) tends to denegrate what 'it' is all about.

~J

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 8/23/2004 7:40:18 PM >

(in reply to sweetsub0)

RE: On the gift of submission - 8/23/2004 11:23:06 PM

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Interesting theory you have there J. Since all living things end up "being used up", DEAD (not metaphorically speaking). I can safely say a gift of anything living or emotional will eventually be used up. There are no romantic hogwash bones in my body. Someones personal choice of words, be it for a color, a state of mind or an action IMO, does not reduce what "it" is. Someone handing me a book and calling it words from the heart, would nauseate me, but it would not deminish the value of the book. Sundew

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RE: On the gift of submission - 8/24/2004 6:47:10 PM

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a gift cannot be "taken" back. It can be stolen back or coerced back or given back but not taken. I think it is a gift of submission, but at the same time I dont think following a guy giving you directions is submission thats just being lost. Submission is giving in to anothers will without conditional rules. Basically if nobody said you cant do it then you can. That to me is Submission.

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RE: On the gift of submission - 8/27/2004 5:49:01 PM

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This is such an incredibly OLD argument that it's not even funny.

Submission and Dominance are like Yin and yang,they only find completion in concert.

To call your submission is GIFT, is flat out arrogant..You damn well expect something in return,competent Domination with one you both trust and respect,at the VERY least.

Let's see how long you stick around if that "Gift" you claim to hold forth so selflessly is not both awknowleged, and catered to in, return. I've been around the block a few times, and let me tell you this,from pure expereince.

Submission is a personality trait, expressed by a NEED for a Dominant partner.

And if you beleive anything else,you are living in a delusional state of mind.

Regards,Terry

< Message edited by RealityFix -- 8/27/2004 5:50:42 PM >

(in reply to cheeba0228)

RE: On the gift of submission - 8/29/2004 5:43:21 AM

LordODiscipline

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Semantics Sundew...

You work the words about in order to lend validation to the term gift through a sophist circle.

A relationship is not a tangible item to be handed over.

And, it is not a theory I posited, it is an opinion.

Nice go around.

~J

(in reply to Sundew02)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/12/2004 4:46:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoCalOwner

, so I gave that relative $10,000.

Can i be adopted?

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/14/2004 4:53:53 PM

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I have to say, while it sounds completely written for the vanilla ear and very well written, it sounds more like a personal opinion than anything. I don't feel that just because I follow someone or show them my soft side that I am submitting in the slightest.

My best friend/late sister-in-law best described this theory by saying, " I know you. I know how soft, giving, yet kinky you are." So, to me, even though she knew me completely, there wasn't a thing I ever submitted to her, but merely revealed all of myself to her. Anyone is capable of this, right? But, the idea of what you're trying to say I completely agree with.

I can tell someone my inner thoughts and my more vulnerable side, but the difference in what I give a dominant is simple; When I trust a dominant with that very same vulnerability, I am then taking it to the next level by showing them that true vulnerability. Within guidelines, I am then giving him/her that inner part of myself that I couldn't share with anyone else. Literally allowing them to lead me by my kinks, needs, etc. I look at it as a shedding of pride while entering a new found confidence as I learn the role in his hands.

Ok... I could be going off on a rant now that makes absolutely no sense now ( lol) so forgive me if you're feeling that right about now... So, since I'm peacefully disagreeing here, I'll make a suggestion.

In my opinion, submission can only be given to one who understands the truest meaning of the word by your own definition. And no, I do not think of it as a gift, because as someone said something to the fact of earlier, you wouldn't take a gift back, would you? I think the idea of power exchange is easier to explain to someone interested in the lifestyle, rather than explaining giving up total control and blindly being lead ( as in the example of following directions from a stranger) because the truth is, after many discussions about my own wants/needs and my dominant's wants/needs, as I give my submission, I am receiving their dominance in the same breath. It is here that I know I will be safe and completely shed of all pride. It is also where the dominant is fulfilled by being able to lead with confidence and power within safe guidelines.

Did any of that make any sense?

I tried. I really did ;)

And incase I didn't make this clear enough, I'm not saying I disagree with the way in which you explain it,. I think it's the soft way to explain the idea to a vanilla. I dunno about you, but even when getting directions from someone, I don't completely close my eyes and believe that they are leading me in the right direction.

(in reply to sweetsub0)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/15/2004 7:25:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub0
This is as this girl thought so many moons ago when she was taught it. But one does not question when one is a newbie.

I have to comment on this quote... no offense intended by this but.... I would hope you question, it's the only way you will learn...

IMO gift is a very bad word to use to describe this... Power exchange is fine.... relationship is fine... as was said in one of the previous posts... you don't gift expecting nothing in return... what about when you recieve a gift from someone say for your bday... do you feel obligated to buy them a bday gift too? when a dominant gives a submissive a "gift" of dominance, does she need to feel obligated to gift him with submission? No, that doesn't seem like how it works in most cases to me.

My .2 cents.

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Don't get upset if I disagree, it doesn't mean I am right... only I see it differently.

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RE: On the gift of submission - 9/15/2004 9:36:22 PM

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Everytime I hear this term it brings a shudder through me. It appears to elevate what a submissive brings to the table all the while devaluing what a Dom has to offer. If pondered too long it tends to irk me.

I never got the concept to start with since I am in the same boat as those that believe that a gift is given without expectations of anything in return.

I have always seen it as an exchange, nothing more, nothing less. One complimenting the other...one meaningless without the other.

Now what I consider to be a gift is the submissive as a whole, not just one aspect of her.

CC

< Message edited by CarnalCravings -- 9/15/2004 9:37:25 PM >

(in reply to Maltor)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/17/2004 10:05:57 PM

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quote:

Submission is a personality trait, expressed by a NEED for a Dominant partner.

And if you beleive anything else,you are living in a delusional state of mind.

Bravo! : ) My submission is no gift. I need to submit - in order to be happy and fulfilled. Think that was easy to face at first, to admit and then accept? It wasn't. I fought it. I ignored it. I denied it. Then one day I realised that was as futile as fighting, ignoring or denying the fact the I have blue eyes. It's simply -me- *smiles*

Syn

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/21/2004 2:13:35 AM

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To me submission is not so much a gift, as it is a Synergy. Dominance and submission are receptive magic, an eternal balance, the Yin and Yang. They evoke one another. The magic beginning with the submissive. For it is her or his willingness to surrender to the dominant, that sets the magic in motion.
The magic is the circular flow of erotic, emotional, and spiritual energy between two people. It is reaching out so far, that you find yourself becoming part of one another's soul. It is the satisfaction of needs so deep within us that we must have one another to be complete, and in some cases, it is the mutual accessing of exalted states of consciousness.

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/21/2004 6:15:00 AM

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quote:

For it is her or his willingness to surrender to the dominant, that sets the magic in motion.

But someone willing/needing to submit without someone willing to accept the huge responsibility of taking control is no different than someone needing to take control and having no one to relinquish it. Following with the rest of your post, I think this is equally shared and important and they set things in motion together. : )

Syn

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RE: On the gift of submission - 9/22/2004 10:09:33 AM

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Syn, that is why it is receptive Magic.. The more one gives, the more the other inturn wants to give...

RONIN

(in reply to Synocense)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/22/2004 12:04:10 PM

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CC -
We agree with you position. To us it appears common that a submissives "gift" has more value then the Dom's "gift". What we value is what WE have become. We do not think of what we do or provide for each other as a gift. Any action or expression is a function of who we are. We're not sure if it's different in that beth does not consider herself a submissive. she was, and had, a submissive personality and demeanor prior to us meeting, but now she is a slave. We saw that as her evolution. Does that create a different perspective and expectation?

Any gift given with an expectation is not a gift, it's an investment. And of course this doesn't apply exclusively to D/s relationship. Whether you are expecting a "thank you" or or a future favor your expectation puts a cost to the gift. Sometimes is obvious, throw a Dollar to a street person, and you feel better about yourself, think you are helping, or expect he/she will leave you alone. Some expectations are more esoteric, like the expectation of increased stature in the community after "giving" a large donation to charity or the envy of relatives and friends when you are able to bale out someone financially strapped.

The rarest gift comes anonymously, unexpectedly, without even the possibility of expectation on the givers part. How many of any of us, outside or within this lifestyle can say they've actually given such a gift?

Merc & beth

(in reply to CarnalCravings)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/22/2004 5:55:49 PM

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If it is a gift, can it be re-gifted? Not according to Seinfield!

I do not feel it is a gift, is a submissive a submissive if she has no one to submit to? If a Dom has no one to serve him, is he a Dom?

< Message edited by INSIDEYOURMIND -- 9/28/2004 5:35:39 PM >

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RE: On the gift of submission - 9/22/2004 6:31:06 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: INSIDEYOURMIND

If it is a gift, can it be re-gifted?

No, but you can return it if you kept the sales slip.

~stef

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RE: On the gift of submission - 9/22/2004 7:21:38 PM

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quote:

I do not feel it is a gift, is a submissive a submissive if she has no one to submit to? If a Dom has no one to serve him, is he a Dom?

As both submissiveness and dominance are trait qualities, they are indepent of the ability to be able to use them. I am a slave. It wouldn't matter if I were owned, as it is *what* I am. The mindset is one that denying is to deny myself. My goal in pleasing, is one that is needed within the realms of my relationship. My personally beliefs are that even though it is my goal to please Master, in failing him, I fail myself. And where he always has the option to release me, I have to live with myself.

Oh, I am with the group that hates the whole *gift* thing. Yes, a submissive can and should make choices on what they want/need/ feel capable of doing, but once those have been made, to not honor them shows them as a poor submissive in my books, not one who has chosen to take back their gift....

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Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to INSIDEYOURMIND)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/24/2004 3:06:21 AM

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quote:

Syn, that is why it is receptive Magic.. The more one gives, the more the other inturn wants to give...

But But But...why does it begin with the submissive person? Why do you think this person sets things in motion?

_____________________________

Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence?

(in reply to RONINArchAngel)

RE: On the gift of submission - 9/26/2004 10:56:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl
No, but you can return it if you kept the sales slip.

I asked my mother for a refund when I had to have my gallbladder removed.

When I give someone a gift, I do expect something in return. I expect them to say thank you. I expect them to like it and enjoy it, because I choose gifts carefully to suit the person. If I give someone something and I don't care about their response or enjoyment, then it's not a gift.

With all that, as I said before, I don't consider submission to be a gift.

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RE: On the gift of submission - 9/27/2004 12:46:03 PM

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In this girl's experience of herself and sisters she has known in real time who are also now full time servants, submission has never been a gift. As a matter of fact every single one of us had it cultivated out of us, it wasn't even something we knew we had in us let alone desired. But then again this is one of the main differences she has learned on these boards with respects to the lifestyle and Masters. Some Master's find submissives already aware of whatever desire, with whatever background and build from there. Others choose to create slaves from blank canvases more as it were. Then there is the entire Gorean argument, to which her house prescribes, that by nature women submit to men. And this has nothing to do with gifting and everything to do with a biological function. But she won't argue this point or argue homosexual aspects etc...she just offers it as another viewpoint.
This girl's main problem with the term gift is it implies this tug of war between a sub and a Dom...like a carrot...and then in essence the sub is always in control..."oh do You want my gift, do You? oh then be a good boy" lol!
she has seen this many mnay many times in play parties where it is pretty much par for the course but then again that is S/M mostly not D/s.

It sounds to her in all honesty, like what He said to you was a poetic line...Master's have many of these to get us to do what they want us to do. It may just be He knew that is what you needed to hear, since you were not at a point to release control to Him conciously.

just my two cents, your mileage may vary,

sabrina King

kajiira

House of King

(in reply to sweetsub0)

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