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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:26:56 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am actually surprised that the argument for separate gay only units has not been proposed.
Not that would be progress but I can imagine some politician or another thinking that would be a great "compromise".


Indeed, why not?

The British Army has had whole regiments of cross dressers for the last three hundred years after all - since the Act Of Union actually - and theyre much feared by the enemy too.

E

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:30:05 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Can anyone in the discussion say that the majority of Americans today do NOT think homosexuality is perverse?


Yep. http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=290 THis is about gay marriage, not gays in the military, but I think it gives a sense of where folks in the US are on homosexuality.

"While a majority of Americans oppose gay marriage, a similar majority supports civil unions (which grant gay couples most of the legal rights of marriage without the title of marriage), by a 54% to 42% margin, according to a Pew poll from August 2006."

It's interesting that among folks who go to church once a week or more, the number supporting civil unions is even higher - 60%.

Edited to add that I found another statistic, perhaps more pertinent to your question. http://www.gallup.com/poll/108115/americans-evenly-divided-morality-homosexuality.aspx

"Agreement that homosexuality should be considered an "acceptable alternative lifestyle" (a wording Gallup began using in 1982) has followed a more linear path (though it, too, dipped after the Supreme Court ruling in the summer of 2003), increasing from 34% in 1982 to 44% in 1996, to 54% in 2003, and 57% in 2007, where it remains today."

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 6/8/2009 3:46:10 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:32:12 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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Status: offline 		There are gay couples I know that oppose civil unions as they see it as a back-assed way to avoid the issue
just an observation

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:38:02 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		 There is actually at the moment another reason why homosexuals are not allowed to openly express themselves in the armed forces [at least in the British I do not know about the American policy] as most of our high intensity operations are in the middle east it is not desirable to have homosexual men facing staunch muslims. Israel used to have women in nearly all of it's army including most frontline combat units however they found that muslim soldiers would never surrender if they thought they would be surrendering to women. Obviously from a military point of view that is disastrous. It is similar with homosexuals. This is by no means official policy but it is something to consider this issue it is not always quite as straightforward as it first appears.

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:40:14 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Lady E,

What are those units called? And do they have communcal showers and bathrooms?

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:46:35 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Lady E,

What are those units called? And do they have communcal showers and bathrooms?


I would take a guess that she was joking around about the 51st Highland Division... aka Devils in Skirts or Ladies From Hell.  A unit that wore (still wears) kilts.  I know for awhile they stopped during WW1 because of the loose material and barbed wire not going together well...
 
Just a guess on my part, I am sure she will correct me if I am wrong.

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:48:35 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Lady E,

What are those units called? And do they have communcal showers and bathrooms?

Some of the famous ones are the
Black Watch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Watch
Queen's Own Highlanders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Own_Highlanders


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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 3:53:36 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I was being silly V - as others have indicated - I was talking about the several Scottish regiments we used to have, now reduced in number I believe, whose uniform is based on the kilt (or an interpretation thereof).

The only thing they do better than fighting is drinking.

E



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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 4:36:28 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Quite the contrary...almost ALL men and women are quite confident in fighting wars and serving in the military with gays...as long as they don't know it.

This reveals the general cowardice and fickle nature of the even the SPOUS.


General cowardice? Based upon this one item you wish to call some of our military personel cowards?

quote:


This is essentially the same as saying (ruling) that a gay man (or woman) has no constitutional right to serve in the military if ANYBODY discovers they are gay.


I do not believe anyone has a constitutional right to serve in the military. If I am mistaken, maybe someone could point that right out to me.

quote:


I wonder how long it will take before this hits private employment ? Probably not very long. What's to stop me from firing any gay once he or she is 'out ?' How about don't ask don't tell at the work place ? After this, it shouldn't be discrimination. Knowing an employee is gay could ruin my workforce if can do the same in the military.



Private employment is different than military service. Give it some more time and I am sure the policy will improve, because the current don't ask, don't tell, is an improvement over the previous policy. This has to do with military cohesiveness, and the psychological impact it may have on others in the unit, or in units they do operations with. Yes it is because many may be homophobic or have a problem with homosexuals, but that is what the military has to deal with currently. Times are changing and in the future it will be easier to enforce, and it will have less of an impact.

It is not so much that I agree with it, but I can see why they are doing it, at least at this time.

The cowardice I write of is that of the SC judges who should have put an end this unequal treatment under the law, i.e., employment discrimination.

As for constitutionality...it's called equal treatment under the law. So gays have the same constitutional rights against employment discrimination (all else being equal) as straights and one of those is to serve in the military.

I couldn't care less what previous policy directed military enlistments or promotions. This is an obvious discrimination and illogical treatment of the same personnel as the military has had over the ages...as long as they remained in the closet.

That psychological impact you write of is the psychology of discrimination and prejudice as we all know...gays have serve admirably for years as long as they protected that discrimination.

In my view...this is all ridiculous and it's time the court stood-up and did their job.

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 4:46:09 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
I understand the hesitancy, and saw with my own eyes how homophobic a group of guys get when they are living in the same barracks and showering in the same large room....


I read a column recently that was making these points about showers and barracks, and how it was unreasonable to expect our soldiers to deal with the possibility that they might be ogled or that they might be the target of another soldier's impure thoughts. I'm surprised that our military men aren't embarrassed that this argument is being made on their behalf.

Many high-school-aged kids have to shower with others in the same large room, and while they don't like it, they seem to be able to deal with it. It's less common today than it was when I was in high school, but it's still the norm in many school districts, particularly for athletic teams. In college I slept with 27 other girls in a big room full of bunk beds, and while I think most of us felt that it sucked, it was what we had to deal with so we dealt with it.

Are there really that many military men with such delicate sensibilities and so little self-assurance that they can't handle the kind of thing that many high school and college kids deal with as a matter of course? If there are, what does that say about the ability of our military personnel to deal with other situations that they might find uncomfortable or threatening? These are supposed to be highly trained, well-disciplined troops able to put aside their feelings and fears to deal with whatever confronts them in defense of our country. It seems pretty ridiculous that we expect these folks to lay down their lives for us without complaint, but that expecting them to shower with someone who might steal a glance at their junk is over the line.



< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 6/8/2009 4:47:15 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 4:47:56 PM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I was being silly V - as others have indicated - I was talking about the several Scottish regiments we used to have, now reduced in number I believe, whose uniform is based on the kilt (or an interpretation thereof).

Fighting men in kilts? Hazaah!

The only thing they do better than fighting is drinking.

E

You don't say?






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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 4:58:08 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
I understand the hesitancy, and saw with my own eyes how homophobic a group of guys get when they are living in the same barracks and showering in the same large room....


I read a column recently that was making these points about showers and barracks, and how it was unreasonable to expect our soldiers to deal with the possibility that they might be ogled or that they might be the target of another soldier's impure thoughts. I'm surprised that our military men aren't embarrassed that this argument is being made on their behalf.

Many high-school-aged kids have to shower with others in the same large room, and while they don't like it, they seem to be able to deal with it. It's less common today than it was when I was in high school, but it's still the norm in many school districts, particularly for athletic teams. In college I slept with 27 other girls in a big room full of bunk beds, and while I think most of us felt that it sucked, it was what we had to deal with so we dealt with it.

Are there really that many military men with such delicate sensibilities and so little self-assurance that they can't handle the kind of thing that many high school and college kids deal with as a matter of course? If there are, what does that say about the ability of our military personnel to deal with other situations that they might find uncomfortable or threatening? These are supposed to be highly trained, well-disciplined troops able to put aside their feelings and fears to deal with whatever confronts them in defense of our country. It seems pretty ridiculous that we expect these folks to lay down their lives for us without complaint, but that expecting them to shower with someone who might steal a glance at their junk is over the line.




I have always wondered why they think that they are "all that, a bag of chips, AND a cookie," that they think anyone WANTS to look at them.   

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 5:28:26 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
I understand the hesitancy, and saw with my own eyes how homophobic a group of guys get when they are living in the same barracks and showering in the same large room....


I read a column recently that was making these points about showers and barracks, and how it was unreasonable to expect our soldiers to deal with the possibility that they might be ogled or that they might be the target of another soldier's impure thoughts. I'm surprised that our military men aren't embarrassed that this argument is being made on their behalf.

Many high-school-aged kids have to shower with others in the same large room, and while they don't like it, they seem to be able to deal with it. It's less common today than it was when I was in high school, but it's still the norm in many school districts, particularly for athletic teams. In college I slept with 27 other girls in a big room full of bunk beds, and while I think most of us felt that it sucked, it was what we had to deal with so we dealt with it.

Are there really that many military men with such delicate sensibilities and so little self-assurance that they can't handle the kind of thing that many high school and college kids deal with as a matter of course? If there are, what does that say about the ability of our military personnel to deal with other situations that they might find uncomfortable or threatening? These are supposed to be highly trained, well-disciplined troops able to put aside their feelings and fears to deal with whatever confronts them in defense of our country. It seems pretty ridiculous that we expect these folks to lay down their lives for us without complaint, but that expecting them to shower with someone who might steal a glance at their junk is over the line.




These "highly trained, well-disciplined troops" are usually between the ages of 18 and 22.

And I never had a gym class where any of the guys completely stripped to take a shower afterwards, there were always shorts on
Even in Jobcorps there were 3 people in my dorm willing to shower at the post that didnt have curtains ((I was one of them, but them, im an exibitionist))

All I know is what I have seen, and what I have seen is that these highly trained, well-disciplined troops act like children when asked to be naked around anyone who may view them sexually, without the feeling being reciprocated, almost to a man. When we fix that problem, the "Dont Ask, Dont Tell" jackassery will fall away like a sheet to reveal a truly united fighting force.

((ETA: thanks for proving that I should have snuck into the girls locker room in school))

< Message edited by Asherdelampyr -- 6/8/2009 5:29:07 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 5:33:21 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
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Status: offline 		To me the key part of this is not whether gays should be allowed to serve in the military. It is that we have yet another example of Obama changing horses in midstream. If he does this a few more times I might actually learn to like the guy or at least tolerate him.

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 5:37:55 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:



Ok, a question then
If you had to hide from everyone that you enjoy any form of sex or dating or anything like it... How bad would your life suck?



Probably not at all. It's nobody's business who, what or how I like to f*ck. I'm there to do a job.



< Message edited by LotusSong -- 6/8/2009 5:38:46 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 5:48:13 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
I have always wondered why they think that they are "all that, a bag of chips, AND a cookie," that they think anyone WANTS to look at them.   


It's weird, isn't it? It seems an extension of a nasty stereotype of males - that they are willing to fuck anything that has a pulse and their preferred set of genitalia and can't be trusted to control themselves. Having women in the military is supposed to be an awful thing in part because heterosexual men cannot be counted on to control themselves and to look on women as "just another soldier". Apparently, they can't be expected to see other men as "just another soldier" either.

It's really pretty disturbing when you think about it. These are the folks who are out there representing and defending our national interests who can't be counted on to police their own dicks and have to be sheltered from situations where they might lose control of themselves. Rather than limit military participation to het males, perhaps we ought to limit it to women and non-heterosexual men.

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 5:52:41 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
All I know is what I have seen, and what I have seen is that these highly trained, well-disciplined troops act like children when asked to be naked around anyone who may view them sexually, without the feeling being reciprocated, almost to a man. When we fix that problem, the "Dont Ask, Dont Tell" jackassery will fall away like a sheet to reveal a truly united fighting force.


It seems to me that the way to fix that problem is to tell these guys to get over it and act like men instead of like children.


Edited to add -
When I was in high school, the boys not only stripped for the shower, they weren't given suits for the swimming part of gym class - they swam in the buff. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant for the non-exibitionists among them, but they dealt with it. Many of us girls hoped that there would be a mix-up in the pool scheduling...

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 6/8/2009 6:00:10 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 6:49:53 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

Having women in the military is supposed to be an awful thing in part because heterosexual men cannot be counted on to control themselves and to look on women as "just another soldier". Apparently, they can't be expected to see other men as "just another soldier" either.



Actually THAT is the problem.  And is what makes women and gays "second-class" soldiers. 

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 6:52:25 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
It's weird, isn't it? It seems an extension of a nasty stereotype of males - that they are willing to fuck anything that has a pulse and their preferred set of genitalia and can't be trusted to control themselves. .


Judging by the stats of sexual assault in the military academies, it apparently is true.

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RE: Supreme Court Turns Down Challenge to 'Don't Ask, D... - 6/8/2009 6:55:21 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Aylee I am sorry but that simply isn't true there are a number of different reasons why the armystrictly limits women being in the armed services [in particular front line units] and why homosexuality is not tolerated openly. It is not as simple as heterosexual men not being able to control themselves that is actually very deeply offensive.

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