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RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 1:44:39 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's the entire point. Police departments are supposed to work as a cohesive unit. One idiot's abuse of power should tarnish the system under which he came to be in said power.

I'm not sure if these responses are specifically angled because of a previous "all cops are bad" thread somewhere else around here, but countering the blatant horror of such an abuse by someone who is put into a position of power because their competence should be able to live up to meriting it...countering it by making comparative judgments about people who are just recklessly criminal is preposterous.

It is akin to responding to an article about a parent physically abusing a child with "Well, if we linked every story of a school bully hitting another kid...".

That's not the point of what she was saying. I was accused (by someone who apparently hates *all* cops and doesn't read *all* of my posts before replying) of being amused by police brutality. The accuser (the OP in this thread) is on and apparently has been on an anti-cop kick for quite some time.

Of course bad cops are bad. And of course they make the whole department look bad. Whether that is how it should be or not, it's how it is. However, not all cops are bad. And judging them as all bad because of a select view is a very unreasonable standard that no one else in the world is held to.

The news agencies occasionally inform us about a military member who couldn't handle one thing or another, snapped and commited some type of crime. Does that mean all military members are drunken, wife beating, pot smoking, innocent killing scum? Certainly not. The same is true for cops. So one cop pulls a jackass move and loses his cool, beating someone up over something simple. Does that mean everyone who is pulled over has a broken mop handle in their future? Certainly not.

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Post #: 101

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 1:47:28 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

No, but the common factor in both groups of people is that they are both human and subject to all that entails.

This is the silliest thing I've ever read.

That's the common factor?! We're all human and humans err so a cop committing an atrocity is equivalent to a street thug committing one?

While we're at it, let's have parents scour the sex offender state lists for potential babysitters. After all, they're just as human (and likely to err) as daycare workers.

Again, you missed my point entirely. And yes, this issue goes far beyond this thread. You're coming in at the tail end of it.

The statement you quoted was designed to illustrate that even cops are human and make human mistakes. Whereas criminals will actually go out and do something nefarious strictly because they want to, so often what people freak out about in regards to police brutality is simply a case of one cop, pushed to the edge, who made a bad choice. Should he be punished? Absolutely and he should be fire as well. However that one cop's action should not detract from the thousands of cops who do not lose their cool while doing the super-human feats we expect them to do on a daily basis.

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Post #: 102

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 1:50:47 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Again, you missed my point entirely.

That's because you conveniently answered to both my comments before I ever got to respond the first time.

Anywho...it seems we're not really in disagreement after all.

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Post #: 103

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 1:52:36 AM

Loki45

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's because you conveniently answered to both my comments before I ever got to respond the first time.

Anywho...it seems we're not really in disagreement after all.

I'm a fast typist, especially when bored.

And no, I didn't think we were in disagreement. Just shedding some light for you so you can see what angel and I (and others) have been dealing with since...yesterday I think.

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Post #: 104

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 1:56:07 AM

Lorr47

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

There was a chief of police of a major metropolitan area who was asked how a civic minded group could help the police in light of all the liberal court decisions. He said "Don't worry about it. My officers can lie better than the innocent can tell the truth."

And?

You ascribed truthfulness to the cops and a penchant for lying to those accused of a crime. Groan. Even the cops laugh at that naiveté.

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Post #: 105

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 1:59:39 AM

Loki45

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
You ascribed truthfulness to the cops and a penchant for lying to those accused of a crime. Groan. Even the cops laugh at that naiveté.

Do we as a society not expect criminals to lie?

Do we as a society not expect cops to tell the truth?

Can each group do something unexpected? Sure. But as we all have been discussing for some time, if a cop lies and it covering up some form of brutality or crime....well I'd say he's not much of a cop. And I bet cops would agree. That would only leave one of those two groups for him to fit into, right?

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Post #: 106

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 2:26:44 AM

Lorr47

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
You ascribed truthfulness to the cops and a penchant for lying to those accused of a crime. Groan. Even the cops laugh at that naiveté.

Do we as a society not expect criminals to lie?

So your "expectation" overrides the "presumption of innocence?"

Do we as a society not expect cops to tell the truth?

My father was IA for 15 years. I practiced law for 30 years. Yes, occasionally you will trip over a truthful cop, but not often enough to "expect" such an anomaly on a regular basis.

Can each group do something unexpected? Sure. But as we all have been discussing for some time, if a cop lies and it covering up some form of brutality or crime....well I'd say he's not much of a cop. And I bet cops would agree. That would only leave one of those two groups for him to fit into, right?

Today's cops should be reguired to file "environmental impact statements" because their arrests smell so bad.

(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 107

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 2:42:25 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

You know what? I'm not even going to waste my time. It's clear you are coming in at the end of this debate and I really have no interest in explaining it all to you again.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 6/14/2009 2:43:35 AM >

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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
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Post #: 108

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 3:02:38 AM

Lorr47

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

You know what? I'm not even going to waste my time. It's clear you are coming in at the end of this debate and I really have no interest in explaining it all to you again.

Raucous laughter.

(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 109

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 3:13:23 AM

Loki45

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47
Raucous laughter.

Fully expected.

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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
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Post #: 110

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 5:09:18 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampz

Gosh, I really though most all 'southerners' were a bit too straight laced and red necked for my taste. Hummmm, lol!

and he's good looking too, in that young Elvis kind of way..........

a bit argumentative though

E

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Post #: 111

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 5:17:20 AM

sirsholly

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Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
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quote:

To question authority doesn't equate w/ fear. Seems unreal to think you are suggesting Slaveboy is scared.

i never said it did.

I clearly said that prejudice and distrust equate fear.

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Post #: 112

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 5:38:19 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

I don't take pleasure in the suffering of other human beings

Really?

But according to some of your other posts you certainly do not care, either.

Your statements favoring no consequences (or barely so) for non-violent offenders indicates that you give no thought to the victims. The thug that is released because he caused no physical harm in all probability is going to keep offending (and rather smugly) because he got away with it in the past.

There can be emotional damage to the victim that is not visible, as would be damage from a physical attack. The loss of comfort/security in their home that was burglarized, the anger they feel because their car was stolen, the fear because their wallet/ID was taken and the harmless criminal now has their home address, the hell of trying to straighten out the mess of identity theft....

You have stated your desire these criminals not serve jail time

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Post #: 113

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 5:56:18 AM

barelynangel

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Orion, perhaps you should read the rest of the posts and you will see why i stated that. Seeing you read up to THAT point. You may want to continue and read my response to Panda.

angel

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Post #: 114

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 6:16:38 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
That's the entire point. Police departments are supposed to work as a cohesive unit. One idiot's abuse of power should tarnish the system under which he came to be in said power.

I'm not sure if these responses are specifically angled because of a previous "all cops are bad" thread somewhere else around here, but countering the blatant horror of such an abuse by someone who is put into a position of power because their competence should be able to live up to meriting it...countering it by making comparative judgments about people who are just recklessly criminal is preposterous.

It is akin to responding to an article about a parent physically abusing a child with "Well, if we linked every story of a school bully hitting another kid...".

As with what i said to Orion, perhaps if you read farther you will see my response to Panda. If you read that far you should read the rest.

GENERALIZING and advocating hatred and general all cops are bad and the WHOLE department should be tarnished is BS and it puts cops in danger with mindsets like that being advocated. AND it also sets up ideas wherein there every move is then seen as WRONG. As with the granny thread when it was not incorrect for the PO.

Slaveboyforyou seems to have this ever present idea that his generalizing about cops is ok and to me feels posting this type of story somehow justifies his generalization. To blame a whole department for one idiots decision is ridiculous and very dangerous for the rest of the people. YOU may think that's okay but i don't. Cops signed up for hell, i will admit it, but i will be damned if mindsets like yours and slaveboyforyou gets sent out as if its correct. Bad cops are individuals, IF a whole department is found bad then yeah they have a reputation to overcome, but people see bad cop and that makes it dangerous for the REST of the cops who already are in unpredictible situations as the granny thread shows. As well as citizens both the criminal and non or on lookers etc.

The OP also seems to believe criminals aren't really that bad and don't leave any victims and should be given a pat on the head. So because he uses post like this to justify his generalizations about cops, i think if people start posting about these criminals he so thinks are just children who don't know any better and how there ARE victims (and i am not speaking of the people who commit crimes as he tends to see as the actual victims).

So my post was about something that was a combination of things with the OP that he seems to be in the extremes -- cops are bad because he doesn't like the SYSTEM where criminals are somehow the victims. He says he doesn't like suffering (which he only refers to criminals as victims) but seems to believe its okay for cops to be put in danger and its okay for people to fight with cops when they are being arrested, to cause havoc and make a dangerous situation when being arrested -- instead of cooperating with the cops. He seems to advocate people NOT take personal responibility when being arrested and cooperate, instead they should fight and be loud belligerant and cause all kinds of issues wherein the cops have to fight them and body handle them to arrest them and then suddenly these people are VICTIMS.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/14/2009 7:18:49 AM >

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RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 6:27:04 AM

slaveboyforyou

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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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FR:

I am not going to reply to the many asshole remarks to my original post. I have been enjoying my weekend, believe it or not. I will never give up my rights. I know the Constitution backwards andf forwards. I read it all the time. Come and get me, you dirty Feds. I would love to file a lawsuit against you.

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Post #: 116

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 6:36:17 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Makemesmile4u, you could become a Beck Supporter but it will only effect your paying dues really and the union won't like you very much and they will do very little to help you even if management has to follow the contract with you -- they kinda like their money -- which is why they have those clauses of union security and dues automatically paid --- so they get paid and everyone in the unit it covers HAS to be a part of the union. I never said people who didn't want to be part of the union didn't have to follow it. I know many cops so i know why they have unions. I am not going to get into the union good or bad here --i simply explained to Slaveboyforyou that how the discipline and such occurs is usually set out with regard to the Contract. In many instances it is with regard to how IAB handles things but sometimes it is spelled out.

Edited to add this: Also, IAB doesn't HAVE to allow a union rep IF they are simply investigating. If they allow it its simply out of courtesy. Union Reps are not a requirement when things are being investigated and a company speaks to an employee about an incident. Union reps are only required to be present at the discipline or final decision phase against a specific employee. If they are speaking to you and you aren't who they are investigating-- they don't have to allow your union rep in with you to talk to you.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/14/2009 7:34:36 AM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Post #: 117

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 6:56:32 AM

DedicatedDom40

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I noticed all the cops were white and most occupants in the ambulance were colored. Is this some hillbilly racial profiling thing? Relatives of the KKK alive and well behind a badge?

< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 6/14/2009 7:03:09 AM >

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Post #: 118

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 7:11:30 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

quote:

I respect Slaveboys attempt to affect change at the local level more than the thieves who go to Washington to steal as much as possible.

Lorr, i am not sure what you know of slaveboyforyou's statements all across the board but what he hates is our SYSTEM as a whole. To me someone that verbal and that volital and passionate about the system as a whole that he is willing to place ALL cops in danger with his vast generalizations because he HATES the system so blame the cops idea and generalize about all cops and believe the criminals are the actual victims. Sorry but running for office when you are 21 and its now 12 years later and you are so passionate and negative about a system willing to generalize a group of people whose motive for being is really to help and not harm, won't make the change you complain about. The change slaveboyforyou speaks about needs more than a small town town meeting and county meeting -- it needs passionate drive and work because it Federal and State -- not local. For someone so passionate, its disappointing to see that is only about talking about it versus doing something about it.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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Post #: 119

RE: Oklahoma Cops Attack Paramedics - 6/14/2009 7:33:01 AM

DedicatedDom40

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MissDominae, I certainly do not lack respect for police and the thankless job they do.

But I rightfully become wary of those who wrap themselves in their uniform and oath, and think the system as a whole simply cannot ever shift into territory that begins to jeapordize civil rights. And yes, there will be critics who believe that strongly.

Personally, I think the advent of the taser was the turning point in alot of public opinion about cops. Cops now had a non-lethal weapon to control an individual's behaivor, and no longer were required to 'think their way through a problem' that previous generations of cops before did when they didnt have such a convenient imobilizing weapon. Hell, even the billyclubs of old required more prudence, knowledge and physical effort on behalf of the cop swinging it. And whenever you resort to swinging a billyclub, someone or something is going to be dented, leaving behind a physical footprint of its use, so prudence of use was practiced much more often. We have seen numerous amounts of dashcam footage where cops end up tazering someone who is simply stopped for speeding, and that type of eagerness to be confrontational didnt exist among the cops when all they had at their disposal was the prudent use of the club. Tasers leave no dents, and prudence seems to be out the window with many.

Are we 'dumbing down' our police forces by giving them these handy gadgets? And are incidents like this the product of that?

< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 6/14/2009 8:12:46 AM >

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Post #: 120

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