RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/16/2009 7:37:00 PM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Libertaire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

For one, it isnt outside the market, at least not in the way that you seem to be suggesting
Pay rate is easy to determine, they will go as they always have by either the State average or they will just pick the company that makes the best Bid on the project
Length will be determined by how long it takes to get the project completed the way I see this playing out is:

Government says "We want x tunnels built in this area"
Companies bid, the lowest bid (Hopefully from a reputable company) gets the job
the company decides the rest

Creating jobs can be a good argument, you just have to look at what else it does, and what kind of jobs are made in the process. My point is that we cant just say "It must be good because it creates jobs" However in this case, after reading through all the linkage provided I think it may just be a decent idea

Couple of things here

1 As the state exists, and as the state employs people and purchases goods and services of course its within the damn market

2 there is no action for the private sector to take, because it is a STATE OWNED ROAD
That part was in caps, since you seem to be unable to grasp it. We dont know what demand there is for these things, I am willing to wager that you havent bothered too look at what they do, or t the fact that they arent even close to the first of thier kind

They are trying to save animals, also in case of a flood this will keep the road a bit dryer, at least at first

Since when is the state an active part of the market? Indeed, the decision to invest this taxed money is outside of market mechanisms and within the domain of externalised intervention. What actual demand is there for this investment of capital? If there has been inaction regarding this in the private sector, then what demand and therefore utility value is there for this? None at all.

_____________________________

Pirate King,

The nicest man you'll ever bleed for

Posting Help

Vitam Piratae Eligo

The Rainmaker

(in reply to Libertaire)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/16/2009 8:01:34 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

(nice try tho)

If you wish to learn more- study larouche pac.

http://larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=10651

(if you know everything there is to know over this unprecedented monetary collapse=then hit the cool aid.)

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/16/2009 8:05:45 PM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

(nice try tho)

If you wish to learn more- study larouche pac.

http://larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=10651

(if you know everything there is to know over this unprecedented monetary collapse=then hit the cool aid.)

It creates jobs, and purchases goods and services
that isnt a try, that is exactly what any large entity does

they are paying people to work, that is creating a job

They have buildings and roadways built and obviously go through items as mundane as office supplies

I have been lucky enough to get a few state contracts in my time, they create as much as any other client, they just paid better.

((And thanks for the link, I always love hearing a PAC try to validate themselves and their view by repeating the same nonsense over and over))

< Message edited by Asherdelampyr -- 6/16/2009 8:07:31 PM >

_____________________________

Pirate King,

The nicest man you'll ever bleed for

Posting Help

Vitam Piratae Eligo

The Rainmaker

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/16/2009 8:31:35 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

FR

This would not be so bad as a part of a larger project to improve the infrastructure. If it is stand alone it is about as useful as teaching people to weave baskets. And folks we do need some improvement of infrastructure. While stimulating the economy was not intended to be the charge of the government, infrastructure was. (sorta)

I don't know that much about the rest of the dirty cities in the US, but Cleveland could sure use some help. We have bridges closed to trucks because they can no longer support the weight. We have periodic water main breaks and the resultant sink holes, which turns into thousands of cars sitting there idling with the AC on, with a person inside who is no doubt going to be late for work. Their car exuding heat and CO2, and them hating every minute of it adding to their aggrgravation quotient for the day. There is also property damage caused by those not paying attention, as well as those who are more prone to road rage after traffic finally gets moving.

Another thing they should do is get a handle on all the taxes and restrictions put on trucks and truck drivers. With all this regulation in place some of them still drive like yahoos, it has done no good. Why was deisel always less than gas for decades and now the situation is reversed ? Because truckers HAVE to pay. This is so patently unfair it is ridiculous. Everything you own comes in on a truck, EVEN YOUR TRUCK ! Don't tell me that it's the refineries, it is mostly road use taxes. Reefers and such that use deisel buy at a lower rate but the fuel has red dye in it. If they catch you with any of that dye in the main tank there are big fines. And the logs are ridiculous, some truckers now just pay the fine every time for not keeping one, and they want details.

All in all, the government has absolutely no skill in creating wealth or assisting there at. The best they can do is provide a sound infrastructure to facilitate those who do have a knack for it. Let us get our parts and materials in time, without alot of fuss and someone will probably come along with enough moxie to get some real money rolling. But if he has to literally build the roads to his factory and teach all the potential employees how to read, this does not help.

One might ask for example; What does Germany have that we don't have ? First and foremost a better infrastructure. A very close second is a superior educational system. These things might take two decades to develop here, it does not happen overnight. Even if we put the best schools in the world here tomorrow at sunrise, it will take two decades to see any significant improvement. The government does not like to think in decades, and that is part of the whole problem.

The highways, they are already funded. They could build roads that last for decades but they do not. This because ditch diggers and road workers are hard to retrain after the job is done. This is fact. How can you think about a rise to economic success under these conditions ?

In other words, we are not going to solve these problems by using the same mode of thinking that created them.

T

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 6:59:18 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

(nice try tho)

If you wish to learn more- study larouche pac.

http://larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=10651

(if you know everything there is to know over this unprecedented monetary collapse=then hit the cool aid.)

It creates jobs, and purchases goods and services
that isnt a try, that is exactly what any large entity does

they are paying people to work, that is creating a job

They have buildings and roadways built and obviously go through items as mundane as office supplies

I have been lucky enough to get a few state contracts in my time, they create as much as any other client, they just paid better.

((And thanks for the link, I always love hearing a PAC try to validate themselves and their view by repeating the same nonsense over and over))

The government HAS no money. It merely shuffles the money of the productive class.

Governments are the leach.

Which idea in particular intrigues you at Larouche pac?

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 10:33:26 AM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

...

Funny, every road I've driven on for the past 30+ years has been created by the state (and by "the state", I mean either the federal, state, or local government). Every package I've had delivered to every house I've ever lived in was driven on one of those state-created roads. Right now, about 40% of the power I'm using to keep this laptop running is coming from Hoover Dam. Every glass of water I've drank for the past 35 years came from a state-built and state-run water purification plant.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that those roads aren't actually the state's, but belong to the contractors who built them. Or that the water purification plants don't belong to the state, but belong to the contractors who built and maintained them. In which case, I demand ownership of the five different computer software systems I've built for clients, as the fact that I built and maintained them clearly makes them mine, and not the people who paid for them and distributed access to them as part of a larger business strategy.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 11:28:10 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

Funny, every road I've driven on for the past 30+ years has been created by the state (and by "the state", I mean either the federal, state, or local government). Every package I've had delivered to every house I've ever lived in was driven on one of those state-created roads. Right now, about 40% of the power I'm using to keep this laptop running is coming from Hoover Dam. Every glass of water I've drank for the past 35 years came from a state-built and state-run water purification plant.

Unless, of course, you want to argue that those roads aren't actually the state's, but belong to the contractors who built them. Or that the water purification plants don't belong to the state, but belong to the contractors who built and maintained them. In which case, I demand ownership of the five different computer software systems I've built for clients, as the fact that I built and maintained them clearly makes them mine, and not the people who paid for them and distributed access to them as part of a larger business strategy.

.Why then is the Chicago Skyway now "gone", i80 in Indiana now gone...and similar set ups? i355 in Chicago. Private.    Most of this build with tax payer money.

So then- the government is god- and provides for us.
The government "creates wealth" perfect.

I now quit my job.
No more taxes..   no sales tax, excise tax, license tax,     in short no more extraction of sweat from the productive members of society.

Why bother? We have the government.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 1:39:17 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Why then is the Chicago Skyway now "gone", i80 in Indiana now gone...and similar set ups? i355 in Chicago. Private. Most of this build with tax payer money.

Not sure about the individual histories, but if a private road is being built with taxpayer money, and then handed over to a purely private organization, that's kinda messed up. Maybe someone got some hare-brained idea and thought the "free market" should "do its job" or something.

quote:

So then- the government is god- and provides for us.

What?

quote:

The government "creates wealth" perfect.

Just like many economic entities do.

quote:

I now quit my job.
No more taxes.. no sales tax, excise tax, license tax, in short no more extraction of sweat from the productive members of society.

Why bother? We have the government.

...what?

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 2:58:47 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

IAL, Of late- I dont want the govt to fix any more problems. Not the feds. All politics are local. I am for some programs and some government, locally things are run pretty good. Even PA as a state.

I am not happy with the off shore bankers taking over the country- which will render us a 3rd world country. History repeats itself. Even if we are "America"....

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Profile

Post #: 29

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 4:00:25 PM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline

You know what pa
after seeing the extreme senseless tack that you seem to take in the middle of any argument I have decided to not play this game with you
see ya :)

_____________________________

Pirate King,

The nicest man you'll ever bleed for

Posting Help

Vitam Piratae Eligo

The Rainmaker

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 30

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 6:42:35 PM

numuncular

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

(nice try tho)

If you wish to learn more- study larouche pac.

http://larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=10651

(if you know everything there is to know over this unprecedented monetary collapse=then hit the cool aid.)

isnt lyndon larouche some sort of deranged proto-fascist?

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 31

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 8:35:34 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

(nice try tho)

If you wish to learn more- study larouche pac.

http://larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=10651

(if you know everything there is to know over this unprecedented monetary collapse=then hit the cool aid.)

isnt lyndon larouche some sort of deranged proto-fascist?

It's not that simple. He's either a deranged conspiracy theorists or an out right defrauder.

(in reply to numuncular)

Profile

Post #: 32

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/17/2009 9:25:34 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

IAL, Of late- I dont want the govt to fix any more problems. Not the feds. All politics are local. I am for some programs and some government, locally things are run pretty good. Even PA as a state.

I can see that as a solution, I suppose. Dissolve the US as a federal agency, let the individual states work it out. Of course, now you have 50! different versions of the "illegal immigration" problem, instead of just 1.

quote:

I am not happy with the off shore bankers taking over the country- which will render us a 3rd world country. History repeats itself. Even if we are "America"....

...what?

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 33

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/18/2009 1:01:58 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Sorry, but the state creates NOTHING. It merely redistributes the fruits of the productive class.

(nice try tho)

If you wish to learn more- study larouche pac.

http://larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=10651

(if you know everything there is to know over this unprecedented monetary collapse=then hit the cool aid.)

isnt lyndon larouche some sort of deranged proto-fascist?

It's not that simple. He's either a deranged conspiracy theorists or an out right defrauder.

Larouche has a bizarre past. His views in the 80s were nutty. I got into a fight with one of his people at the post office.

His brain comes up with some interesting ideas- and in the past few years- I ideas that I think will work for civilization.

(in reply to DomKen)

Profile

Post #: 34

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/18/2009 1:03:14 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

You know what pa
after seeing the extreme senseless tack that you seem to take in the middle of any argument I have decided to not play this game with you
see ya :)

,,,,said the kettle to the pot.

(in reply to Asherdelampyr)

Profile

Post #: 35

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/18/2009 1:22:57 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

IAL, Of late- I dont want the govt to fix any more problems. Not the feds. All politics are local. I am for some programs and some government, locally things are run pretty good. Even PA as a state.

I can see that as a solution, I suppose. Dissolve the US as a federal agency, let the individual states work it out. Of course, now you have 50! different versions of the "illegal immigration" problem, instead of just 1.

quote:

I am not happy with the off shore bankers taking over the country- which will render us a 3rd world country. History repeats itself. Even if we are "America"....

...what?

....so then you are Indigenous to the land?

I am not.    .....we came over from Poland and Germany.     So in a way, I am an alien.

On the banker thing.... the dollar will collapse and the banksters steal the wealth.

My advice ?    Hoard- gold/silver.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Profile

Post #: 36

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/18/2009 2:36:26 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Libertaire

Since when is the state an active part of the market? Indeed, the decision to invest this taxed money is outside of market mechanisms and within the domain of externalised intervention. What actual demand is there for this investment of capital? If there has been inaction regarding this in the private sector, then what demand and therefore utility value is there for this? None at all.

.....interesting.

i take from this post and the others in this thread that you are one of those 'market will provide' people. Your last sentence was particulary interesting. It seems to imply that unless something is profitable it has no utilitarian value. Really?
Is that actually what you believe?

(in reply to Libertaire)

Profile

Post #: 37

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/18/2009 11:53:23 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

IAL, Of late- I dont want the govt to fix any more problems. Not the feds. All politics are local. I am for some programs and some government, locally things are run pretty good. Even PA as a state.

I can see that as a solution, I suppose. Dissolve the US as a federal agency, let the individual states work it out. Of course, now you have 50! different versions of the "illegal immigration" problem, instead of just 1.

quote:

I am not happy with the off shore bankers taking over the country- which will render us a 3rd world country.   History repeats itself.   Even if we are "America"....

...what?

....so then you are Indigenous to the land?

I am not.    .....we came over from Poland and Germany.     So in a way, I am an alien.

On the banker thing.... the dollar will collapse and the banksters steal the wealth.

My advice ?    Hoard- gold/silver.

... no, really man. What?

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 38

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/19/2009 5:17:37 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

IAL, Of late- I dont want the govt to fix any more problems. Not the feds. All politics are local. I am for some programs and some government, locally things are run pretty good. Even PA as a state.

I can see that as a solution, I suppose. Dissolve the US as a federal agency, let the individual states work it out. Of course, now you have 50! different versions of the "illegal immigration" problem, instead of just 1.

quote:

I am not happy with the off shore bankers taking over the country- which will render us a 3rd world country.   History repeats itself.   Even if we are "America"....

...what?

....so then you are Indigenous to the land?

I am not.    .....we came over from Poland and Germany.     So in a way, I am an alien.

On the banker thing.... the dollar will collapse and the banksters steal the wealth.

My advice ?    Hoard- gold/silver.

... no, really man. What?

If you really ARE curious- browse the posts of the last few weeks. I don't want to over post- and get a notice from one of the mods.    I posted ALOT of rants on it- -in fact- some are flat out sick of me. I don't blame them at all.

If you then have a specific detailed question- then ask.

There are hundreds of posts- I made.   The others want me to GO AWAY.
(or at least the offbeat rants to)

Anyhow- weather looks nice today. :-)

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Profile

Post #: 39

RE: Your Stimulus Money at Work - 6/19/2009 7:58:25 AM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

If you really ARE curious- browse the posts of the last few weeks. I don't want to over post- and get a notice from one of the mods.    I posted ALOT of rants on it- -in fact- some are flat out sick of me. I don't blame them at all.

If you then have a specific detailed question- then ask.

There are hundreds of posts- I made.   The others want me to GO AWAY.
(or at least the offbeat rants to)

Anyhow- weather looks nice today. :-)

No, the thing is... it's really hard for me to make sense of your posts. I mean, semantically. It's hard for me to understand what it is you're trying to say, and once I do understand what you're trying to say, it's nearly impossible to understand how what you're trying to say fits into the flow of the conversation. I feel like I'm missing something.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Profile

Post #: 40