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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/17/2009 10:34:52 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45
Clinton commits perjury in Federal court as a sitting US President

Untrue.





No shit. Jesus. Call it what it is, people.

Oh, he definitely and deliberately misled, no question about it. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he played it perfectly. And as much as it makes me grit my teeth, hold my nose, and close my eyes when I say this, he didn't technically commit perjury. Morally and ethically, it's a distinction without any difference whatsoever, but legally, he did not commit perjury. He did not lie under oath, because within the context of what constituted "sex" in that specific legal proceeding, he told the truth; but when he got on television and told the American people he did not have sexual relations with that woman, he wasn't covered by that technicality, and he was lying. I wouldn't have a problem at all with people calling it what it was, but when people categorically state that it's a known fact he committed perjury, they're just talking out of their asses.


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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/17/2009 10:50:40 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So, we apparently actually have a politician who practices what he preaches.


And here I always thought practicing what you preach means not doing in the first place the things for which you criticize other people. When did that definition become obsolete?


My point was that he said that, because of Clinton's affair, and Larry Craig's sexual misadventures, that neither should continue to hold leadership positions.

Since Ensign admits to the same type of indiscretion, he should also resign his leadership position. He has done so. He is consistent, even if he is weak.

Failing to live up to your own sexual code of conduct is a personal failing. Political leadership is a public position of trust. Generally, failure in your own personal code of conduct is an indication that you shouldn't continue in such a political position of trust.

I notice that no one has made any claims that he has ever asked Barny Franks to resign, due to his sexual activities, even if they do not match Ensign's own personal preferences.

I think (just based on the two articles linked in this thread), that Ensign is more concerned about stated principles, and an individual's ability to adhere to them, then what those principles actually are.

So ... I think you can legitimately make a distinction between his private failings and his public failings. You can call him a hypocrite for his personal failings if you wish, but I would disagree because he admitted his failure. I suspect that his personal code also acknowledges that - in the personal realm - admittance of error, contrition, and taking responsibility are the actions required when he fails to live up to his personal standards.

In the public, political realm, he has taken the actions that he advocated to others for similar failures ... so, no, I don't agree that (based on the scant info in this thread) that Ensign is a hypocrite in either of the areas under discussion.

Firm

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/17/2009 10:57:42 PM   
DomKen


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Actually he demanded Clinton resign his elected office. Ensign similiarly holds elected office. Till he resigns that office he's a hypocrite.

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/18/2009 1:56:39 AM   
housesub4you


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Failing to live up to your own sexual code of conduct is a personal failing. Political leadership is a public position of trust. Generally, failure in your own personal code of conduct is an indication that you shouldn't continue in such a political position of trust.

[/quote]


The problem with his personal code of MARRIAGE conduct (not sexual as you state) is he made it public when he, as a sitting elected official used himself as a role model to preach higher standards to preserve marriage, which is what he uses to vote against gay marriage.  He has been one of the loudest voices and some thought had a run at 2012 for his stance against gay marriage.  With the old tired line "gays getting married will weaken the bonds of marriage in this country, marriage is between a man and a woman. blah blah blah.  (they never include the person they are having an affair with in that line.  So in truth, to Ensign marriage is between a man, a woman and a woman on your staff.


So yes his marriage conduct is a reason he should step down, he has demanded others to do so.  He has never said because a person is gay (sexual conduct) they cannot hold office, he just does not think they should have the right to get married.

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/18/2009 4:39:29 AM   
MarsBonfire


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Barney Frank should resign his position, because he's gay? Um... when did the GOP manage to make being gay illegal? (I know they have been wanting to for some time... I think they got the idea from watching "The Handmaid's Tale." They got a lot of their "best" ideas from that movie... Or was it the other way around?)

Ensign, fourth highest republican in Congress, was one of the primary "family values" bullshitters, back in the day when republicans actually mattered. Naturally, the hypocritical fuck steps in it big time. What irks me, is the fact that he was STILL pumping this crap out of his throat, right up until the time his ex-mistress decided to try and blackmail him for it. (i.e. "y'all should do as I say, even though I'm a lyin' sack.")

Republicans lie, they cheat, they steal, they take rights away from people, they grab as much power as they can, and they do it all behind closed doors where the American public can't see. This crap has happened before, and it will continue to happen (primarily to the GOP) because they are the assholes preaching to the public how superior they are to all those gays, lesbians, bisexuals, trans-folk, illegal immagrants, women, blacks... (it begins to sound like Bugs Bunny reading a list of what a Tasmanina Devil likes to eat, doesn't it?)

In short, about Ensign:  burn nazi scum!!!

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/18/2009 4:42:02 AM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Oh come on, he lied under oath ("I did not have sexual relations with that woman"....errrr...sure Bill, you was just talking about peace in the middle east and you got so excited you jizzed on her dress). That's close enough to the definition of perjury to satisfy me.

Actually that was his statement to the press, not his court testimony.  So, irrelevant to any discussion of perjury (also, perjury is not simply "lying under oath").

Moreover, under the definition of "sexual relations" used by the prosecutor, he did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky.  Although (by that same definition) she had sexual relations with him  (Pedantic?  No, because we're talking about legal testimony)

Kudos to you though for getting the quote right ("sexual relations" not "sex").


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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/18/2009 4:52:32 AM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Oh, he definitely and deliberately misled, no question about it.

Indeed.


quote:


but when he got on television and told the American people he did not have sexual relations with that woman, he wasn't covered by that technicality, and he was lying.

Actually in the South (where Clinton is from) "sexual relations" often means only "intercourse", not "blowjob".  So even in the context of his TV statement, you cannot categorically state that he was lying.  Your definition of "sexual relations" may well include oral sex, but among many Southern Baptists (which Clinton was raised as), it does not. 

He chose his words carefully.


quote:

I wouldn't have a problem at all with people calling it what it was, but when people categorically state that it's a known fact he committed perjury, they're just talking out of their asses.

Yup.  Well said.  People often misuse "perjury" when it's actually a three-part test.


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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/18/2009 5:24:11 AM   
thishereboi


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You forgot this part.

Some democrats also lie, they cheat, they steal, they take rights away from people, they grab as much power as they can, and they do it all behind closed doors where the American public can't see.

Too bad you can't see it on both sides, but it doesn't surprise me.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 6/18/2009 5:25:04 AM >


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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/18/2009 7:31:43 AM   
SilverMark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

You forgot this part.

Some democrats also lie, they cheat, they steal, they take rights away from people, they grab as much power as they can, and they do it all behind closed doors where the American public can't see.

Too bad you can't see it on both sides, but it doesn't surprise me.

As do Republicans, Independents and if they could ever get anyone elected libertarians....it isn't the party affiliation it is the person.....if I had been Bill and a 21 year old wished to give me head....I would have taken photos and had t-shirts printed !!!! just so everyone knew it was TRUE!....but, I am a sick guy like that!



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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 4:06:18 AM   
housesub4you


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I just love how the GOP instead of discussing Ensign and now it appears his 2 affairs, and his first statements about the woman's husband attempting to get money out of him turned out to be a lie can only it bring the discussion back to Bill.

Avoid the issue and say only talking points, never discuss facts and the GOP will rise again



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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 10:06:26 AM   
kdsub


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I agree...Too bad we can't seem to stop classifying the actions of an individual with the group we associate them with. Yes there are times when the actions of a group do paint a picture of the individual but the crimes of Ensign do not describe Republicans. They describe a human with faults...just like the rest of us.

Butch

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 2:04:00 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree...Too bad we can't seem to stop classifying the actions of an individual with the group we associate them with. Yes there are times when the actions of a group do paint a picture of the individual but the crimes of Ensign do not describe Republicans. They describe a human with faults...just like the rest of us.

Butch


I don't know, the actions of Bill Clinton certainly tainted all liberals and all Democrats, according to the GOP:



Worldandnation: Congress sees through party-colored glasses

Republicans were aghast at Clinton's behavior, with many saying it showed he had lied and abused his power.

"It's vile," said Rep. Mark Foley, R-West Palm Beach. "It's more sad than anything else, to see someone with such potential throw it all down the drain because of a sexual addiction."


For those who don't remember, Mark Foley was later found to be making sexual overtures to underage boys in e-mails and IM's.

Another member of the "family values" party:


Gingrich Admits to Affair During Clinton Impeachment - ABC News


Setting the stage for his entry into the presidential race, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-Ga., gave a radio interview to be broadcast today with Focus on the Family's James Dobson, in which Gingrich for the first time publicly acknowledged cheating on his first and second wives.

.............Gingrich also acknowledged cheating on Ginther while leading the impeachment proceedings against President Clinton for allegations of perjury involving the Paula Jones sexual harassment civil case and the president's affair with Monica Lewinsky.


.........Constantly espousing family values even while he carried on an affair, Gingrich linked his party to wholesome family values and Democrats to, well, something else.

During the 1992 Democratic National Convention, Gingrich said, "Woody Allen having nonincest with a nondaughter to whom he was a nonfather because they were a nonfamily fits the Democratic platform perfectly."

In 1994, Gingrich linked Democrats to Susan Smith, a woman who had murdered her two children in 1991.

"I think that the mother killing the two children in South Carolina vividly reminds every American how sick the society is getting and how much we need to change things," he said. "The only way you get change is to vote Republican." 



Salon Newsreal | Portrait of a political "pit bull"


"But why, I ask, are we excusing or ignoring similar behavior?" he demanded. "No one, regardless of what party they serve, no one, regardless of what branch of government they serve, should be allowed to get away with these alleged sexual improprieties, and yet it is obvious to me ... that a double standard does exist."


Burton's political career has been punctuated by uncompromising sermons on personal morality in high places. His Web site states in large type, "Above all, Dan Burton believes the people have a right to principled leadership and that character does matter," and boasts that "Dan Burton is the leader in the Congress fighting against all odds to get at the truth on all the Clinton Scandals."


A self-described "pit bull" of the political right, Burton made headlines last April when he told the editorial board of the Indianapolis Star: "If I could prove 10 percent of what I believe happened, he'd [Clinton] be gone. This guy's a scumbag. That's why I'm after him."

But oops:

Earlier this year, Rep. Dan Burton, R-Ind., the powerful head of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee and a major critic of both President Clinton's personal behavior and his campaign fund-raising techniques, startled the country by suddenly admitting that he had fathered a child out of wedlock.

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 2:14:51 PM   
kdsub


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rule it happens...all the time... my point is it shouldn't. Yes that particular person should be judged but not the party.

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 2:33:45 PM   
rulemylife


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And my point is that Republicans have judging others as a mainstay of the party's platform.

For a party that supposedly is for less government they have no problem with government intruding on a host of social issues from abortion to gay rights under the guise of "family values".

I really don't care what any politician does with their private life, unless it somehow affects their public duties.

I do get a little annoyed with blatant hypocrisy though.

And that was just the top of the hit parade, I could have listed several more.

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 3:23:25 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I suspect that his personal code also acknowledges that - in the personal realm - admittance of error, contrition, and taking responsibility are the actions required when he fails to live up to his personal standards.

In the public, political realm, he has taken the actions that he advocated to others for similar failures ... so, no, I don't agree that (based on the scant info in this thread) that Ensign is a hypocrite in either of the areas under discussion.

Firm


Especially admittance of error, contrition, and taking responsibility when you have no alternative.

Yes, John Ensign, another noble member of the family values party we can all truly admire.

Take particular note of the statement he intends to stay in the Senate, which is clearly not taking the action he "advocated to others for similar failures", according to the original link.


 Husband of Sen. Ensign's former mistress demanded cash


LAS VEGAS – The husband of Sen. John Ensign's former mistress made "exorbitant demands for cash and other financial benefits" through an attorney, an aide to the Nevada Republican said Friday. In a statement to The Associated Press, Ensign spokesman Tory Mazzola said the demands from an attorney for Doug Hampton were made within the past month.


.......Unconfirmed reports that Doug Hampton was pressuring Ensign for money have circulated since the senator abruptly came forward Tuesday and confessed to a nine-month extramarital affair with Cindy Hampton, his former campaign treasurer and Hampton's wife.


Until Friday, the senator's office had not responded to questions about the allegations.

Ensign, 51, has said he intends to remain in the Senate.

The statement came hours after the Las Vegas Sun published a letter from Doug Hampton to a news organization asking it to expose the senator's "unethical behavior and immoral choice." The nearly 1,000-word letter to Fox News anchorwoman Megyn Kelly accuses Ensign of "heinous conduct and pursuit" of Cindy Hampton, even after both had left their jobs working for Ensign.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/19/2009 3:31:52 PM >

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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 4:29:41 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Husband of Sen. Ensign's former mistress demanded cash

And as housesub4you pointed out above, it turns out the claim of extortion is also a lie.

So much for Ensign's "family values"...


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RE: When it comes back to bite you Ensigns admits to a... - 6/19/2009 4:58:53 PM   
kdsub


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You seem to think I am criticizing Democrats for their reaction to this scandal... I'm not singling out any party...just people who bring party affiliations into personal scandal.

So I am agreeing with you it is wrong… except… I am including all parties.

Butch


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